And we wonder why countries like Iraq aren’t begging for our style of government…

David–the only difference that I can imagine is that the robber barons of the late 19th century were a little more guilt-ridden and much more civic-minded, hence the long list of wonderful public cultural institutions that came into being during the age of Carnegie et al–libraries, museums, foundations, etc. Can you imagine Cheney and his ilk using their ill-gotten fortunes to build inner-city libraries or art museums that are open to the public? Pah. What these joyless, thin-lipped ogres actually spend their money on is beyond me.

This is a very good friend of mine. We’ve been friends for over thirty years. I didn’t ask these questions to make a point or be arguementative; but to get insights into how fundamentalist christians see things. My friend is representative of a large number of people. It is important to see things from their perspective. If you have no idea of anothers view, you will have no ability to make persuasive arguements where you disagree.

Thirty plus years ago I went on a backpacking trip with a church group. I learned that I liked backpacking and that I shouldn’t forget my jacket in the high country in the summer. The young adults who led our group talked to us about their version of christianity. The one and only thing that was required to be saved was to accept into my heart that Jesus, God’s only son is our lord and savior. Maybe those aren’t the only words, but basically that. I didn’t have to try to follow his teachings. I had to have faith. The guides talked to us individually. It was determined that I was a rock because I didn’t have faith. I had said that I needed to learn more about Jesus and the bible before I could accept what they were saying.

I think the modern fundamentalist christian movement thrives on blind faith. It discourages rational, critical thought and reasoning. In a confusing, rapidly changing world, blind faith must be very reassuring. It doesn’t ask much of people. Morality is mostly a matter of sexual behavior. There isn’t a lot of emphasis on giving to and caring for” the least of those amongst us.”

There is a constant theme of the family under threat. Most of the fundamentalist conservative christian groups describe themselves as pro-family. I do think the family is under threat, but I don’t think its from divorce and homosexuals. I think the foes of the family are consumerism, television/computer/video games etc., long work hours, economic difficulties. It takes time and effort to bind a family together.

This certainly is a disjointed reply. Maybe a collection of thoughts is a better desciptor.

I took a quick spin through Leviticus, and found several nuggets of wisdom.

Leviticus Chapter 11 proscribes shellfish as an abomination.

Uh-oh. I used to eat lots of scallops and shrimp. Will God smite me?

Leviticus, in Chapter 15, also teaches (teacheth?) the following:

‘And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.’

Seven days of isolation—and it’s the woman’s fault!

The next nine verses detail all the woe of touching a menstruating woman.

Lordy, have I ever been living in sin for 47 years!

Then, in verse 29, Leviticus shows God’s mercy:

‘And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest.’

This is the sacred payment, which includes the immolation of one of the two animals, for cleansing the ‘sin’ of her menstruation.

Oh, my.

None of the menstruating women I’ve ever had contact with have brought pigeons or turtles to the village priest. Guess I’m damned, eh?

Leviticus 24, 10-16 states that death by stoning is the penalty for cursing (although the Englishmen who wrote the King James called it ‘blaspheming’).

Double uh-oh. I’ve been quite the potty-mouth for much of my benighted life. Yet please don’t hate me for thinking my stoners nothing but sadistic devils.

Leviticus Chapter 25, verses 39+ details the propriety of slavery. Yes, slavery.

Folks, there’s a word for these sorts of cultural cruelties: BARBARISM.

What rational, empathetic person would use THIS source—Leviticus or any other book of the Old Testament—for an argument over Twenty-First Century TAXATION?

And have any of you noticed that the Jews (although I have to admit to some ignorance here) have evolved AWAY from these ancient embarrassments that fundamentalist Christians cling to like children to the pathetic little myth called Santa Claus? (Yes, I used the ‘E’ word: ‘change over time’. Shame on me!)

Look, to those of us observing from the outside of this faith-based foolishness, cherry-picking your religion’s scripture to justify such arguments only proves McKibben’s point about selfish, self-absorbed ‘Christians’.

And please remember that ANY sort of miserliness actively and clearly DEFIES the teachings of Jesus! (And this comes from an agnostic, mind you.)

Of course you’re free to be disingenuously self-righteous, but please don’t think that the rest of your fellow, non-theocratic citizens won’t call you on it.

Yet despair not, o ye of the Faith. There’s a country in this world right now where strict adherence to God’s True Word is mandatory, where laws are taken straight from Holy Scripture. And where, just like here, the elites avidly promote fundamentalist religion even while living a princely international lifestyle and while declining to follow their religion except in sham, public displays of piety. A country where religion is used specifically to keep the masses ignorant and pacified. It’s called Saudi Arabia.

Bon Voyage!

J.S.

But you keep throwing the Old Testament into the discussion. The New Testament supplanted the Old, which wasn’t working too well. God’s chosen people kept screwing up and getting conquered, mostly because they, especially their kings, wouldn’t follow his advice. The New Testament replaced the idea of national salvation with individual salvation through the Kingdom of God. It is open to all who would adopt God as their father by following his laws. Not all the laws of Leviticus, or even all 10 commandments, but the ones that really count: Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not commit adultery. Do not bear false witness. Honor your father and your mother. Love your neighbor as yourself. (Paul seems to have had a problem with honoring his mother and father, and substituted “Do not covet.”)

Well, at least this discussion shows that there is not anywhere near enough agreement on what it is to be Christian for people to talk about making government Christian. I just wish it would stick to establishing justice.

Live Free and Prosper,

But our government is also not supposed to be a democracy, but a republic, subject to the Constitution, which prohibits establishment of religion, among other things. Charity, education, and personal health and holiness are matters of religion, and not subject to the laws of the state, except where rights need to be protected. There is no right to charity, only the right to ask for it. “Ask and you shall receive,” Jesus said. Demand and you’ll likely get another reaction.

Our right to our property should not be subject to mob rule, or the whims of representatives. Neither should our right to live our lives by our own beliefs.

Still, you show little faith in your fellow man, and a lot of faith in a government made up of the same. The way I see it, if enough people will vote to fund something, it can be funded by those same people, as well as by the people who vote against it only because they don’t want to force their neighbors to support it, or don’t want to be forced to support it too heavily. I live in a town where the July 4th fireworks show is funded by donations. It has one of the biggest shows in the state, every year.

I’ve noticed that state charity is not dependable, being subject to the whims of politicians and voters, while well-run private charities liek the Gospel Rescue Mission keep chugging right along, even when serving a population that voters would never support. People like to control where their money is going. They don’t resent charity they freely give. They resent taxes even when they demand them from others.

Live Free and Prosper