60 Responses to “Baseball: The Dominican Pastime”

1. Nick Says:
   May 16th, 2007 at 4:30 pm

   nother, I can’t (yet) think up any questions about your show topic (even though I’m a baseball fan). But I’ve a favor to beg:
   PLEASE, when this show is done and aired, PLEASE write us up a description of the production process. We’d very much benefit from knowing what it takes to produce an hour of ROS, and to moderate a thread, too. It just might heighten our appreciation of the work of the ROS staff.
   Thanks in advance.
   And have fun, Mr. Producer!
   (I’d wish you luck, but I don’t think you’ll need it: your talents will suffice, I’m sure!)

2. VeritasRox Says:
   May 16th, 2007 at 4:32 pm

   I once tutored a Boston high school student whose family was from the DR. He was in an accelerated program, but he was really torn about whether he should miss baseball practices for extra academic work. I’m not sure what sort of outreach work Manny and his compadres have done for Dominican kids (or otherwise), but I definitely think that it is the responsibility of star professional athletes to preach and uphold the VALUES of their sports–team work, perseverence, discipline, hard work, etc. I think these players bring a lot of hope to kids in the DR and immigrant families, but some focused effort is needed to make sure the message is that Dominican kids have the potential to thrive in a wide variety of fields.

3. Emmett O'Connell Says:
   May 16th, 2007 at 4:57 pm

   The last few weeks I’ve been putting a lot of thought into Latin baseball from an organizational standpoint. For a couple of years in the 1940s there was a move to develop a major league in Mexico which was put down quickly by “Organized Baseball.”

   Now, MLB seems to treat Latin leagues (including summer and winter Dominican leagues) as places to develop players for export, not for domestic consumption. So, I take a big pause with the hints of neocolonialism and exploitation. The fears that are being voiced in Japan over our possible expansion over there is because of our current relationships with Latin leagues. They don’t want Asian baseball to be the next Latin baseball.

   Here are a couple of blogs I ran into today:
   Jesse Sanchez at the Park
   Murray Cook’s Field Blog (about international parks)

4. Emmett O'Connell Says:
   May 16th, 2007 at 4:57 pm

   by the way: Yeah Nother!

5. loki Says:
   May 16th, 2007 at 5:38 pm

   Great idea for a show,Nother! I spent an entire summer in La Republica Dominica in the early 80′s and probably some of these guys playing baseball. Its seems that the folks from Japan, Cuba and the Dominca Republic will dominate the great american game. I regret that Ted Turner of CNN did not cover Cuban baseball during the baseball strike.
   One of my professors in the Domican Republic was Cuba and said that Cubans were more interested in Baseball than soccer or Fidel.
   On another note,Mary the Ashcroft bedscene harks back to Carl Bernstein coverage of former Reagan CIA Director Casey’s last words!

6. Nick Says:
   May 16th, 2007 at 7:25 pm

   Is still don’t have a question, although I suspect a question lurks somewhere in the data I’ve just accumulated by checking the rosters of my four hometown teams (the four cities I’ve lived in or near over my lifetime). I started it because I was pretty sure the Domincan Republic is only a tip of a Latinate iceberg – at least on my primary team…

   Magglio Ordonez, Omar Infante, Carlos Guillen, Wilfredo Ledezma. All Detroit Tigers (my Tigers – my first-place Tigers!) – but all Venezuelans too.
   Not that my Tigers are short on Dominicans however: Fernando Rodney, Jose Mesa, Neifi Perez, and Placido Polanco (a wonderful, nearly poetic, name) are all from the DR.
   So, of the 25-man roster, 4 are Dominicans and 4 Venezuelans.
   Also, his excellency Ivan Rodriguez is Puerto Rican.
   So: 25-man roster/9 Latin American players.

   New York Yankees:
   Dominicans Luis Vizcaino, Robinson Cano, Melky Cabrera
   Venezuelans Miguel Cairo, Bobby Abreu
   Puerto Ricans Jorge Posada, Wil Neives
   & Panamanian Hammer Rivera (whose hammer-stroke ain’t what it used to be)
   25-man roster/8 Latin American players.

   Chicago White Sox (managed by Venezuelan Ozzie Guillen) include,
   Dominican players Pablo Ozuna, Juan Uribe, and Luis Terrero
   Puerto Ricans Javier Vasquez and Alex Cintron
   Cuban Jose Contreras
   & Venezuelan Gustavo Molina
   25-man roster/7 Latin American players.

   Seattle Mariners:
   Dominicans Miguel Batista, Adrian Beltre, Jose Guillen
   Venezuelan (King) Felix Hernandez, Jose Lopez
   Cuban Yuniesky Betancourt
   & Puerto Rican Jose Vidro
   25-man roster/7 Latin American players.

   Totals: 100 players/ 13 Dominicans / 9 Venezuelans / 6 Puerto Ricans / 2 Cubans / 1 Panamanian

   31% of these four teams are Latin American (although it’s an admittedly small sample size — and a totally subjective sample too.)

   One obvious question: why a greater Latin American love of the originally Norte Americano pastime?

   (One conclusion is obvious too: the Tigers, having more Latin players, will win it all this year! Ha!)

7. rc21 Says:
   May 16th, 2007 at 7:27 pm

   Good topic. I’m afraid I must take a differing opinion. The D.R. is an independent sellf governing nation. I fail to see how the big leauges can be accused of colonialism.

   As for not allowing their players to play winter ball. This is a no brainer. Owners pay players millions, why let them risk possible injury?

8. Potter Says:
   May 16th, 2007 at 8:19 pm

   Dear producer Nother,

   Congratulations!

   Okay I’m interested: I am ever astonished by the astronomical sums that baseball players make. Your intro points to what players from DR are making in comparison to the annual ( I assume average) per capita of their compatriots. The question begs: How do these now super-rich players deal with this?

   Love,

   Potter

9. allison Says:
   May 16th, 2007 at 9:03 pm

   Go, Nother!

   As with any subject like this, the views will differ based on each person’s sense of communcal responsibility and accountability versus the right to do what serves ones self best.

   I’m not sure I see how being a self-governing country negates the possibility of economic colonialism. But, with our free market religion, we have always argued that whatever makes money is justified because it makes money. I like that some of us push for consideration of the ripple effect our actions have on others and the ideal that money isn’t the only thing worthwhile pursuing.

   How does the baseball story in the DR compare to the basketball story in the US? Can we look at that model and see what has been learned and what actions/programs have developed to balance the ill-effects of an entire demographic of people putting all their resources into a lottery that will only pay off for a few?

10. rc21 Says:
    May 16th, 2007 at 9:37 pm

    I see it like this. The major leauges are providing a service/school for people in the DR who love the game of baseball. If you are talented enough the possibility of becoming a professional can be attained.

    The major leauges are not forcing anyone to take up the game. The DR as a self governing nation has welcomed the majors into the country so that they may set up these academies.

    Why must every American corporation or business be seen as some evil entity,whose only goal is the destuction and pillaging of everything it comes in contact with.

11. Nick Says:
    May 16th, 2007 at 9:55 pm

    “If the shoe fits…”?

12. Emmett O'Connell Says:
    May 16th, 2007 at 11:52 pm

    rc21: I think a little (or a lot as it turns out) history is needed here. MLB, or what used to be known as “Organized Baseball” (the American and National leagues and affiliated minor leagues) have used unfair, monopolistic practices to prevent the development of competitive leagues in our hemisphere.

    For example, some have argued that the old Pacific Coast League in the 1940s was a major leaguem in all but name. It had a high quality of play and was able to pay higher salaries in some instances. It wasn’t a “rebel” league, but stayed affiliated with OB. In 1947 it applied to become a major league with the NL and AL (at the time, St. Louis was the far west outpost of both leagues) but was rejected. It was later given the designation as an “open league” which landed it somewhere between AAA and the majors. When the Dodgers and the Giants moved to California, MLB effectively put the old PCL out of business.

    The Mexican League around the same time was developing itself as a major league. They had always brought over Cuban, Dominican and Negro League players, but after WWII they started signing players from the majors. MLB cracked down and threatened to ban for life any player who signed with a Mexican club. Like the PCL, the Mexican experiment failed, and in the mid-50s the Liga Mexicana de Beisbol became a AAA affiliated league.

    Organized Baseball is able to weild considerable market weight because the American government didn’t consider it a business, and therefore not subject to anti-trust laws. Ironically, a similar ruling regarding football considered it a business.

    Organized Baseball in the United States is also a closed league system, meaning that to compete, you have to gain permission from the existing teams. You can’t just set up shop and expect to compete.

    On the other hand, football (soccer) in Europe and much of the world is played in an open league system. In that system, I could cash in my $50 million in bubble gum cards, go to London, build a stadium, recruit players and start playing British football. My team would have to earn a place in the highest league (the Premier League) by playing well and drawing crowds, but no one could stop me from playing.

    My problem with the MLB towards Latin America is that it has treated this leagues not as competitors, but as suppliers of raw materials for clubs in American cities. There is no expectation that a Dominican club, no matter how well it plays, will ever face the New York Yankees. MLB still very much acts like a monopoly, a cartel of professional teams, skimming the cream off of leagues around to world.

    Because MLB operates with no expectation of competition (actually there are rules in Organized Baseball regarding where minor and major league teams can locate, so as not to create competition), they have an unfair competitive advantage to other international leagues. You can also put into the mix the contributions to new stadiums that local and state governments have made in recent decades, something that is unheard of in Asia.

13. Nick Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 12:24 am

    My curiosity got the better of me (and while the M’s are losing, 5-0, to the Angels).
    A methodolgy note: I used birthplaces only. Hence no A-Rod or Raul Ibanez (both born in NYC). I’m interested not in ‘genes’ but in culture.

    Latin American Players in the American League
    (14 25-player rosters = 350)

    California Angels:
    Dominican: Hector Carrasco, Bartolo Colon, Ervin Santana, Erick Aybar, Vladimir Guerrero (5)
    Venezuela: Kelvim Escobar, Francisco Rodriguez, Maicer Izturis (3)
    Puerto Rico: Jose Molina
    Colombia: Orlando Cabrera
    Cuba: Kendry Morales
    25-man roster/11 Latin American players.

    Detroit Tigers:
    Dominican: Fernando Rodney, Jose Mesa, Neifi Perez, and Placido Polanco (4)
    Venezuela: Magglio Ordonez, Omar Infante, Carlos Guillen, Wilfredo Ledezma (4)
    Puerto Rico: Ivan Rodriguez
    25-man roster/9 Latin American players.

    Boston Red Sox:
    Dominican: Julian Tavarez, Julio Lugo, Wily Mo Pena, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz (5)
    Puerto Rico: Javier Lopez, Joel Pineiro, J.C. Romero, Alex Cora (4)
    25-man roster/9 Latin American players.

    New York Yankees:
    Dominican: Luis Vizcaino, Robinson Cano, Melky Cabrera (3)
    Venezuela: Miguel Cairo, Bobby Abreu (2)
    Puerto Rico: Jorge Posada, Wil Neives (2)
    Panama Mariano Rivera
    25-man roster/8 Latin American players.

    Cleveland Indians:
    Venezuela: Rafael Betancourt, Edward Mujica, Victor Martinez, Franklin Gutierrez (4)
    Dominican: Fausto Carmona, Jhonny Peralta (2)
    Puerto Rico: Fernando Cabrera, Roberto Hernandez (2)
    25-man roster/8 Latin American players.

    Minnesota Twins:
    Dominican: Julio DePaula, Ramon Ortiz, Luis Castillo, Dennys Reyes (4)
    Venezuela: Juan Rincon, Johan Santana, Carlos Silva, Luis Rodriguez (4)
    25-man roster/8 Latin American players.

    Chicago White Sox (managed by Venezuelan Ozzie Guillen):
    Dominican: Pablo Ozuna, Juan Uribe, and Luis Terrero (3)
    Puerto Rico: Javier Vasquez, Alex Cintron (2)
    Cuba: Jose Contreras
    Venezuela: Gustavo Molina
    25-man roster/7 Latin American players.

    Seattle Mariners:
    Dominican: Miguel Batista, Adrian Beltre, Jose Guillen (3)
    Venezuela: (King) Felix Hernandez, Jose Lopez (2)
    Cuba: Yuniesky Betancourt
    Puerto Rico: Jose Vidro
    25-man roster/7 Latin American players.

    Texas Rangers:
    Dominican: Joaquin Benoit, Frank Francisco, Robinson Tejeda, Nelson Cruz, Victor Diaz, Sammy Sosa (6)
    Nicaragua Vicente Padilla
    25-man roster/7 Latin American players.

    Kansas City Royals:
    Dominican: Joel Peralta, Odalis Perez, Angel Berroa, Esteban German, Tony Pena (5)
    Mexico: Jorge de la Rosa, Joaquim Soria (2)
    25-man roster/7 Latin American players.

    Baltimore Orioles:
    Dominican: Daniel Cabrera, Miguel Tejada (2)
    Venezuela: Ramon Hernandez, Melvin Mora (2)
    Cuba: Danys Baez
    25-man roster/5 Latin American players.

    Oakland Athletics:
    Puerto Rico: Kiko Calero, Hiram Bocachica (2)
    Venezuela: Marco Scutaro
    25-man roster/3 Latin American players.

    Tampa Bay Devil Rays:
    Dominican: Al Reyes, Carlos Pena (2)
    Venezuela: Dioner Navarro
    25-man roster/3 Latin American players.

    Toronto Blue Jays: NONE!

    Totals: 350 players/ 92 Latin American players (26%)
    Dominican Republic 44 (12.6% of total players / 48% of Latin players)
    Venezuela 24 (7% / 26%)
    Puerto Rico 15 (4% / 16%)
    Cuba 4 (1% / 4%)
    Mexico 2 (.5% / 2%)
    Panama 1 (.25% / 1%)
    Colombia 1 (.25% / 1%)
    Nicaragua 1 (.25% / 1%)
    92 total Latin players

    I expected plenty of Dominicans, but I expected more Venezuelans too. I wonder also if the representatives of Panama, Colombia, and Nicaragua played in Venezuela before coming to the American leagues. And is it surprising to anyone but me that only two Mexicans are in today’s AL?
    Anyway, for the tiny DR to supply an eighth of AL rosters is simply astonishing. (btw: I’m not gonna do the NL. This sample will have to suffice.)

    nother, I’d like to learn about the structure of the DR and Venezuelan leagues. How many former American big-leaguers are running those leagues, teams, and player development programs?

14. Nick Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 12:27 am

    oops: I didn’t mean American-born big-leaguers, but Latin players with American big-league resumes.

15. Emmett O'Connell Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 12:56 am

    The Venezuelan and DR summer leagues are both minors of the MLB. Check out the standings for the VSL, they don’t even identify the teams by the location in Venezuela, but rather their parent club. Houston and Pittsburgh are leading in the VSL, while Seattle is only 1.5 games back. I didn’t even know we were playing

16. rc21 Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 9:11 am

    Nick the shoe does not fit.

    Emmet is there anything preventing any other nation from starting it’s own baseball leauge?

17. Potter Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 9:51 am

    Thanks Nick-

    Emmett thanks for that 5/16/07 @ 11:52

    Both are helpful. Baseball is not what it used to be, and maybe it’s not what it ever was ( would Yogi Berra have said that?). I have been asking for years why the “World” Series is called that.

18. nother Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 10:08 am

    Thank your sweet words Potter! Your post means a lot to me. As to your question…many of the super rich players give back and many don’t. You have me curious though, I will try to find out who the good guys are..

    And thank you to everyone else…I’m trying to represent you (the community) as best I can. Please continue to contribute. I will blog about my experience later, but I can tell you that everyone in the ROS office…reads every post.

    Veritasrox, you bring up an important issue. The academies are just now incorporating high school classes into their programs. The more they can train these kids to be men (not just ballplayers) the better.

    Which brings me to Allison’s important point: if those academies incorporate more schooling, could that be considered enough of a “pay off” for that the 98 percent that do not make it? And your basketball analogy is interesting, have you every seen the movie “Hoop Dreams?”

    Loki, yea your right, if Cuba opens up…watch out!

    Nick, thank you so much for those facts! How did you do that? The info you laid out is a great addition to the program. I will look into your “former players” question.

    Emmett, your perspective is vital. You are a co-producer for this show.

    Man, Seattle is only 1.5 back! And those darn Tigers…

19. nother Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 10:13 am

    Potter, my jumbbled words should read: thank you for your sweet words…

20. Henry Shepherd Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 12:46 pm

    Hey Nick, I think your method is pretty skewed. ‘Culture, not genes,’ but you attempt to equate culture with birthplace? Nevermind the inconsistency in your results. For example, Mike Lowell, the Red Sox third baseman, was born in Puerto Rican. And he is Puerto Rican. Sure, he grew up in Florida. And, sure, Manny Ramirez– who you include in your list– grew up in New York. But he is definintely Dominican. American, to some extent, too. To equate birthplace with culture is absurd! Taken to extremes, birthplace clearly doesn’t determine culture, although it can be meaningful. But to make black and white statements about identity, claiming that genes, culture, or birth place are simple factors, is off base. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but take serious exception to your terms.

    I was shocked to see that you were trying (apparently) to equate birthplace with culture; one is a biographical fact that may contain some information, and the other is a collection of ideas and identities that can hardly be dealt with so swiftlly. Just as a quick example about culture, birth place, and whatnot: I have a good friend who was born in Russia and moved here 12 years ago. She is totally bilingual and a ‘typical American college student’ in many respects. She has a young sister who was born in the US but only speaks Russian. Both of their experiences defy simple categorizations about culture, place of origin, etc.

    I hope that doesn’t sound too harsh. Immigration and transnational culture issues are a huge part of baseball, though, so I think it is a relevant topic.

21. Nick Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 1:32 pm

    Henry, I was too tired to type out a full explanation — and disclaimer. What I’m really interested in is the ‘baseball-upbringing’ of the players (which is kind of what this show seems to be about). I’m aware of Man-Ram’s (partial) Bronx roots, and briefly considered asking Boston folks (who know him best) whether his baseball-upbringing was more American or more Dominican. But then, I’d have to have extended the same question to EVERY player on the list, rendering the exercise (a quick survey) nearly pointless, and leaving us with no data base instead of a general – albeit imperfect – one.

    So, I settled for birthplaces because I figured it was more likely (not definitive) that players born in a country would have learned their baseball-ethos in that country. I don’t know the bios of any of the players well enough to do more than that.
    Is the data imperfect? Sure. I can’t interview all the players, and don’t know how to do it any better than this (and over the span of an aggravating nine-inning Wednesday night game). I’m neither a researcher nor a statistician.

    I also meant to include a disclaimer that I probably missed a few guys, but that the sample size (the whole AL) was probably big enough so that the errors would be compensated for, making the differences in percentages small.
    But I think the data offers a decent picture. If you can do better, please go ahead.

    Does any one think that the baseball cultures in Venezuela, The DR, and Puerto Rico are exactly equivalent to that of the late 20th century USA – which provided us most of the rest of the big leaguers playing today?
    Have a look at this:
    Populations (from Wikipedia) of five countries notably supplying today’s AL rosters:
    Puerto Rico – 3,944,259 (supplies approximately 4% of today’s AL)
    Dominican Republic – 9,183,984 (supplies approximately 12.6% of today’s AL)
    Venezuela – 27,730,435 (supplies approximately 7% of today’s AL)
    Japan – 128,085,000
    USA – 301,711,000

    The first three supply a disproportionate percentage by population. Why? Genes? Come on. It’s something else – something cultural. Let’s call it ‘baseball ethos’ perhaps – and then let’s look into it.

    PS to notherEmmett: thanks for all your input so far. I’m proud to share the M’s with a knowledgeable baseball afficionado like you!

22. Nick Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    oops. My PS to nother somehow got eaten by my note to Emmett.
    one more try:
    PS to nother: I just used MLB’s online 25-man roster cache, and checked the birthplaces of the players from there, tallying it up on my word program (while listening to public radio — including last night’s ROS).

23. Emmett O'Connell Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    Nick: try out Baseball Reference’s birthplace datebase, it might help you out better than MLB’s. And, thanks for the compliment!

    I do agree with Henry Shepard in one way. Take Albert Puljos, the best hitter in baseball and born in the DR. He quickly, though, came to the US and was drafted in the amateur draft like any stateside player. He never attended a baseball academy, but played high school and junior college baseball in the midwest. His baseball resume is more like JD Drew’s than Edgar Martinez’s. I’m not saying there was no cultural influence there from his lineage, but there is a lot of gray.

    rc21: There is absolutely nothing preventing anyone in any country starting a new league and trying to attract top talent. That is actually the problem in Japan right now. Economically speaking, they should be a major leage. They have high enough incomes in Japan that they should be able to compete for our top talent (as well as their’s). But, a different cultural ethos and the relative dysfunction of their system seems to prevent them from building an economic major league.

    With leagues closer to the US, I think there are real economic considerations that would prevent anyone from building a competing league. MLB is too much ingrained in our hemisphere’s baseball for a competing league to emerge in any country. That is directly tied to baseball’s exempt status from our anti-trust rules.

24. Nick Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 2:02 pm

    Thanks Emmett — but am I right in thinking that the Baseball Reference birthplace database covers all of MLB history? I ask because it includes death stats too.
    Anyway, I don’t want to accumulate any more data. I did the best I could (or am willing), but would love to read the results of more scrupulous researchers than I.
    I just want to know how many big-leaguers learned their ‘baseball ethos’ in Latin America, in Japan, in the USA, etc., to better understand what nother will eventually try to teach us.
    Now I gotta finish my morning coffee…
    

25. Emmett O'Connell Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 2:53 pm

    In terms of guests:

    Andrew Zimbalist, who wrote “National Pastime: How Americans Play Baseball and the Rest of the World Plays Soccer”

    G. Richard McKelvey, who wrote Mexican Raiders in the Major Leagues: The Pasquel Brothers Vs Organized Baseball 1946

    Screwed up Jesse Sanchez’s url in a post above, here it is: http://js.mlblogs.com/

    Here’s another interesting blog I came across this morning:
    http://globalbaseball.wordpress.com/

    And thanks nother, I missed your earlier comment @10:08 a.m. earlier, you are too nice.

26. Emmett O'Connell Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    Here’s some more info on that blogger, might be a good resource:

    Jonathan Helfgott, Bard College
    Baseball’s Globalization: Economics, Culture, and Sport
    Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Australia, Japan
    I want to use baseball as a medium for exploring the complex dynamics that accompany cultural exchange. For my project, I will immerse myself in various international baseball communities across Latin America and the Pacific Rim, where I will seek out, observe, and engage baseball players, fans, coaches, and scouts wherever I can find them. Baseball’s expansion mirrors the process of economic globalization in many ways. The game of baseball is an accessible and meaningful way to examine the deeper cultural implications of this process.

27. Henry Shepherd Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 5:48 pm

    Hi Nick,

    My comment stemmed from a hunch that you missed Lowell because of his last name, which is not a random ommission, but a result of exactly the kind of quick-and-easy assumptions that I think show that the point has been missed. [Just for the record, too, the Sox will call up Manny Delcarmen before the season's end. He was born and raised in West Roxbury, and his family is Dominican.] Clearly, these communities extend into the US. The ethos of baseball that you are trying to find is the product of a great deal of sharing back and forth– through many parts of American society, through communities that include immigrants, carried to and from parts of communities in the States and to other parts of those communities around the world, seeded in many different ways. I think the benefits of sorting players arbitrarily– being able to crunch numbers– are limited, compared to a more open-ended discussion about the connections that link the diverse aspects and manifestations of these communities to baseball, the game and the League.

28. Nick Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 6:25 pm

    Henry, I knew about Lowell’s half-Latin heritage but didn’t check his birthplace because I recalled that his father was Cuban but that Lowell had grown up in the States (after being born in Puerto Rico). Am I mistaken? Sure, maybe — I don’t know — memory is a tricky faculty. But I don’t care about any one player.
    I can’t help but notice that baseball, in recent decades, is more a Latin American and Japanese pastime than it is a USA/American pastime.

    Anyone with access to ESPN can’t help but notice that the NFL has become the country’s most obsessed-over professional sport. NFL draft coverage is incredible (and incredibly tedious, melodramatic, and lame), while general knowledge of baseball is a mere shadow of what it was while I grew up in the 1960′s & 70′s.

    Our culture has lost much of its once-dominant baseball ethos — but the DR, Venezuela, Puerto Rico, and Japan seem to have retained it — or to have picked up the mantle from the USA.
    And that’s what I’m curious about. Although I’ll readily admit that I’m having difficulty articulating my curiosity.

    Anyway, all those Lowells and A-Rods aside, I still think my raw survey has some value. It ain’t science, no. But it gives a thumbnail sketch of baseball’s importance beyond the NFL-crazed shores of the USA.
    Am I wrong in thinking that that’s a portion of this show’s topics?

29. rc21 Says:
    May 17th, 2007 at 8:11 pm

    Your not wrong.
    One point on football. In the US much of the popularity is derived through school,both high school and college. You don’t have the same thing in baseball. Kids usually grow up following the local pro team, but with football you have 3 seperate yet egually important levels. high school,college,and finally the NFL.

30. allison Says:
    May 18th, 2007 at 12:52 am

    Hey nother,

    I didn’t see “Hoop Dreams” but I’m very aware of it. What I’m not aware of is whether anything has changed? Or has it just shift to “Hip Hop Dreams” now?

    The attitude that all the MLB is doing is providing a school in the DR is sad. It means that some segment of our population still doesn’t get the broad ramifications of exploitation. I’m pretty sure this segment is fairly large.

    As long as we get what we want….

31. rc21 Says:
    May 18th, 2007 at 8:17 am

    allison, please explain. I just don’t understand what you are getting at.MLB has gone to the DR set up baseball academies and schools. Both of these benefit the people of the DR. What is your problem with this.

32. allison Says:
    May 19th, 2007 at 12:02 am

    rc21, I don’t know if I have a problem. I have questions. Not being there, I don’t know the full extent of how the MLB system impacts people there. But this hints at something to expore and be sure that we are not exploiting anyone:

    “Almost every major league team has an academy on the island, where kids as young as fourteen drop out of school and devote their lives to baseball. Street agents, or buscones, scour the poor neighborhoods for talented children — many as young as nine years old.

    These same talented children, most of whom will never make it north, bear a heavy burden: the weight of desperate hope for a family ticket out of poverty.”

    It’s the dropping out of school when most will never see a benefit form the baseball academy that leads me to questions. When they give up that education, have they placed all their eggs in one lottery basket that leaves them destitute and hopeless if they don’t hold the winning ticket?

    If the academies include programs that make sure these children maintain the level of education needed to make them employable outside of the MLB down the road, that’s awesome. If not, I’d be concerned.

33. allison Says:
    May 19th, 2007 at 12:21 am

    PS – I think my 5/19 12:52am post was a bit reactionary. Your comment which suggested that by questioning the accountability of the MLB we were partaking in deeming all corporations evil definitely pushed a button. You took the questioning of a single corporation and escalated it to a generalized characterization of those with those questions. Even if someone here does demonize all corporations, it does not negate the validity of questioning this one.

    It is important to always question the ramifications of the actions of those in power. Especially when very disempowered or desperate people are involved. Questioning may lead to satisfactory answers and we can all sit back comfortably and enjoy the action. Or it may not. But if you aren’t willing to question those in power, then you are equally accountable for any diliterious impacts.

    So, have the academies been set up in such a way that they don’t take into account the negative ramifications it can have on those that don’t make in MLB? What happens to them?

34. rc21 Says:
    May 19th, 2007 at 8:13 am

    MLB is helping kids in the DR who would like the chance to play ball at the major leauge level. They have also set up some schools to help kids in their education. MLB is not the government of the DR, they are also not a charity organization.

    It is not the job of MLB nor should it be to see to the needs of the citizens of the DR. That is the job of the government and or each individual who lives in the DR.

    By the way I do not believe anyone has been forced to attend these academies,but I could be mistaken.

35. Emmett O'Connell Says:
    May 21st, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    No, rc21, you’re not mistaken. I doubt anyone is actually forced to, but given the options available, they would seem to be a preferred way.

    I’ve been reading “National Pastimes” over the weekend, and the difference in how MLB acts and how other national soccer leagues act is striking. Unlike soccer, there is no worldwide authority along the lines of FIFA in the baseball world. MLB, as the biggest kid on the block, is the default world baseball authority. Essentially, what is does is right, because it can. And, as rc21 has pointed out, it rightly does things in its best interest, not in the best interest of the people of the DR, or any other country.

    Nother turned me on to this, but back in 2002, when MLB and the players’ association were negotiating a labor agreement (negotiated again last year), they were talking about a “worldwide draft” to include players from at least Latin America. At the time (I’m not so sure about recent developments), the talks were only between MLB and the MLBPA and didn’t include representatives from countries whose citizens would be drafted. Granted, a Latin player couldn’t be drafted without their prior consent, but instituting a worldwide draft seems like an act of a worldwide governing body, like FIFA, not a single professional league, like MLB.

36. sidewalker Says:
    May 23rd, 2007 at 5:10 am

    Why is it that players from the 3 Asian leagues (Taiwan, Korea & Japan) don’t sell their talents for cheap from a young age to the MLB plantations?

37. Emmett O'Connell Says:
    May 23rd, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Sidewinder: Good question! At least for Nippon Professional Baseball (the highest level of play in Japan) they’re convinced that they’re on par with MLB, so selling their native talent young and cheap would be counter productive. They don’t consider Asian baseball to be subservient to MLB, but rather they’d like to compete.

    Some in the Asian baseball world have been trying to enter into a post-season series with MLB (a true World Series), but MLB hasn’t been up to it. The farthest they’ve gotten is organizing in all-Asian series which includes clubs from Korea, Taiwan, Japan and China.

38. mr. closets Says:
    May 27th, 2007 at 11:50 am

    A world baseball governing body is long overdue. The United State’s tendency to think of the USA as the whole world (e.g. the World Series?) is an obstacle. We are particular obtuse to the economic impacts of our actions on our neighbors to the south.

39. Sutter Says:
    May 30th, 2007 at 9:59 am

    I know nothing about the topic, but wanted to pop in to wish Nother the best of luck tonight!

40. katemcshane Says:
    May 30th, 2007 at 2:15 pm

    I don’t know anything about this, either, but it looks good!! Good luck, Garrett.

41. Tim Sackton Says:
    May 30th, 2007 at 2:55 pm

    I’d like to know something about the history of Latin Americans in the major leagues. I don’t know any of the statistics, my ancedotal sense from following baseball for the past 15 years or so is that the fraction of players recruited from the DR and other Latin American countries has been growing considerably.

    So my question is: is this true, and if so, why? Is it driven by changing economics of the teams (realizing that investing in baseball academies is a net benefit to the teams)? Is it driven by declining interest among American youth, driving a need to recruit outside the US for the best talent? Are American sports as a whole simply becoming more international, for whatever reason (i.e., the rise of European stars in basketball and Japanese stars in baseball, along with a potentially increasing Dominican influence)?

42. Potter Says:
    May 30th, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    GOOD LUCK GARRETT! – break a leg!!! This is momentous- maybe a first?

43. sidewalker Says:
    May 30th, 2007 at 6:16 pm

    Nother, just one of your aficionado here to wish you the best. By the way, who is the abridor tonight? Hope you get a jonrón con las bases llenas!

44. allison Says:
    May 30th, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    Go Garrett! May this show be a home run!

45. nother Says:
    May 30th, 2007 at 9:41 pm

    Thank you so much Allison, Sidewalker, Potter, Kate, Sutter, Nick, Emmett, and VeritasRox! Hey, come to think of it, we could field a darn good starting nine! (Peggysue could pitch)

    You are the teammates I hope to play with as we forge ahead…celebrating and confronting the challenges of a globalized world.

    Or we could just have a beer together sometime.

46. Potter Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 7:53 am

    I’d rather play baseball. I used to play with my cousins when I was a kid. We had a team of three- the pitcher the batter and the outfield ( me). Two boys and a girl. “Hey! not fair! when do I get to bat?) My first lesson in the battle of the sexes.

    I just thought of my first Latin baseball love: Luis Tiant! I loved him!- with that huge bulge in his cheek.

47. nother Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    Potter, they say El Tiante’s father was a better pitcher than he was, but we never saw him because he had dark skin.

    He owns a Cuban sandwich shop on Yawkey Way, you can catch him there before games. He is the sweetest man ever.

    “If a man put a gun to my head and said I’m going to pull the trigger if you lose this game, I’d want Luis Tiant to pitch that game.” – Boston Red Sox Manager Darrell Johnson

    btw, I want to especially thank my man Nick for the research on this thread.

48. nother Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Tiant owns the sandwich shop, not his father – and the grub is tasty!

49. Nick Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Great show, nother. “Informative” & “enlightening” don’t come close to doing it justice.
    Sign ‘im up, ROS! (And give the busconi’s [sp?] percentage to Allison, for keeping nother both interested and participatory )

50. VeritasRox Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    Great show! Nice work! And way to embed Greta’s play speech in your comment.
    I’d love for there to be an ROS softball team. I’m a helluva hitter and center fielder, myself. I’m sure Mary is a badass something or other, and Chris would make a fair and erudite umpire. Anyone else?

51. allison Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 3:08 pm

    “busconi’s [sp?] percentage”

    what does that mean?

52. nother Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 3:19 pm

    I’d say Chris could pitch with Peggysue. Mary could be the player-manager and I’m out in left field.

53. Nick Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    “busconi’s” (which I’m almost surely misspppellingggg) are the would-be agents in the DR who “discover” young talent and then nurture them — and then get a cut of their eventual MLB contracts. Nother credited Allison’s occassional contributions with keeping up his interest in ROS during the Bad Old Days last summer of nasty, unecessary, offputting ad hominem attacks (think Israel-Lebanon war) instead of despairing of it completely. Allison, in my imagination, is therefore a metaphoric ‘busconi’ for nother. And deserves a (metaphoric) cut of nother’s (imaginary) ROS contract.

54. Nick Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    Although… a quick check of my ROS meta-thread files show that although I’ve partially misremembered the details, I got nother’s appreciation and crediting of Allison pretty much spot on. (Well deserved appreciation at that.)
    Anyway — Good Show, nother! (Now do another!)

55. Potter Says:
    May 31st, 2007 at 6:48 pm

    I would really like to be way out in left field

56. nother Says:
    June 1st, 2007 at 1:02 am

    Potter, there is enough room for both of us in left field…maybe I won’t feel so lonely out here

    Nick, when I write something on these threads…Allison and Chris (and I’ve told her this in person) are my ideal readers. Of course, they’re not going to read everything I write, but that’s not important…it’s their conscience I’m conversing with.

57. January O'Neil Says:
    June 12th, 2007 at 9:02 am

    Another great story. After listening to the podcast, I wonder about the boys that go through the camps but don’t get signed. What are their lives like after baseball?

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