Berkman Feedback Lunch
The Berkman Center for Internet & Society was a big part of the genesis of Open Source; Chris is a fellow there, and we lean heavily on advice from Global Voices and David Weinberger and Jonathan Zittrain and particularly Jake Shapiro and, well, everyone over there.
We’re returning to Berkman for a lunch this Tuesday, Nov. 1, to tell them what we’re learning and — much more important — find out what we should be doing. We stand at the beginning of a redesign and some upgrades with our tech partner, Public Interactive, and so we’re looking for advice. I shudder to ask, because I’m intimately familiar with the failings of this site, but I want to know what we can improve, what doesn’t make sense, what you wish were there but isn’t.
But more generally, we’re checking to see how the show is living up to its stated goal: to move as quickly as the Internet, to work with and think like bloggers, to make good radio that sounds like the Internet. Sound vague and unachievable? Welcome to our world.
We’ll be going over this thread at the lunch, so I’m taking off for the weekend. Have at it. The thread is yours. What does Open Source need to be doing?
I’ll put up a more complete accounting tomorrow, but the discussion was great, of course. The short story: general assent that Chris should become more of a presence on the blog. Lots more, including a look at the comments below, because many of them were hearteningly similar to what came out of the Berkman lunch.
October 28th, 2005 at 8:40 pm
As a regular poster here I’d like to say that I wish there were more posters. I don’t know how that happens. We do have a good little group that is forming but it would be nice to have more. I know they are out there. I for one would not call the show unless I had three glasses of wine ( I might do that!) and felt I had to say something important that nobody else was saying. But I find that it is really great to be able to weigh in before during and after the shows. Sometimes a show is so pregnant that it takes awhile to digest before you know what you want to say. So in that sense I think that the blogs can have a potentially longer afterlife than they do. At the moment they are hidden in the archives. This may give a clue to some redesign because there are plenty of shows whose issues are ongoing as well. It might be helpful to see better where a someone added something recently.
I love the interactive nature of this show, I really feel that Open Source has it over other talk shows partly because of this feature. I get the feeling that staff and host are paying attention and want/need our input.
Perhaps your guests would like to add to the blog the day of the show, bat a few balls.
Also- I love the post game analysis.
….. thanks for listening
October 28th, 2005 at 8:48 pm
BTW-How do I edit my post- to correct mispelled words for instance?
October 28th, 2005 at 9:53 pm
I’ve been listening to the show since it first aired (on KUOW Seattle), but I’m only just now starting to check out the website. I can’t say that there’s anything about the show or the website that I’d like to see changed. However, there is one feature I would love to see continue: the Monday discussions of race and class. I think this is a topic of interest to a great many people, but is largely ignored by the MSM. Open Source is the only place I’ve heard any kind of regular discussion of these topics. Keep up the good work!
October 29th, 2005 at 9:09 am
I’d like to see a transcript of the show generated in real time.
It might be interesting to see the blog comments interspersed
into the transcript - a sort of running commentary on the show.
In general I’d like to see the commentary more integrated into
the show itself with guests and hosts interacting with the blogsphere.
It might also be cool to have a video feed either real time or in images
running during the show. These could also be integrated into
the blog. The images can be contributed by the blogsphere or just
studio images.
It might be interesting to see some editorial highlighting in the
blog - emphasizing points offered by the blogsphere that may
become the focal point of the discussions - or just placeholders
for further discussion or links to other topics externally or on the
blog.
How about hierarchical display of shows on similar or running topics
like Race & Class? In general categorization of topics might be useful.
In terms of flow, I’d like to see the show itself to be just one part
of the overall discussion maybe even to the point of integrating
pre/post game analysis decision making processes, etc.
October 29th, 2005 at 2:51 pm
Hi there,
I quite new to the show, and I catch it via the Podcast. I’m wondering how relevant and important you folks feel the podcast audience is. I really think this is something that is booming and has potential to SERIOUSLY impact radio and the way people think of getting their news/entertainment etc.
As far as what needs to be added….I really think the idea of a editorial highlighting is a good one….hyperlinks to external sources that are concurrent with what was discussed etc.
But here’s my main point…..THERE NEEDS TO BE A SHOW ON PODCASTING.!!!!
Peace
Andrew
October 29th, 2005 at 4:31 pm
I think the show is great. I am in New York so I get all the shows via the podcast. I especially like the diversity of guests. You seem to be able to pull knowledgable people fom both sides of an issue. I would like to see more posting like others have said (this coming from someone writing only his second post) but I especially would like you to keep on with the Monday discussions on race. They are very informative.
I don’t know how the show is promoted but you might do a little bit of cutting up clips of the show and submitting them to sites like Media Matters or Crooks & Liars to gain exposure.
Keep up the good work.
October 29th, 2005 at 10:19 pm
Well…it would be nice to get more interactive, actually. There’s a few things you can do to help with that. One would be to have an easier forum for people to make suggestions and actually be heard/replied to. At the moment there’s just a long long long thread of comments where people suggest things, and those things seem to fall deaf ears (I’m sure they’re not, but there’s no way of knowing one way or another).
You may want to set up something like an IRC channel or web chat for people. You could open it up only in time for the show, or have it available at all times. I’ve heard radio shows before that did that, allowing users comments to fliter into the radio conversation. Blogs are great, but they are just one small part of web 2.0. For comments on a particular post, blog comments are great; for gathering information from a group, you might want to look into have a wiki portion of the site (mediawiki is free!).
Another suggestion for blog comments in particular; you might want to look into the threaded comments plugins for wordpress. I’m actually not sure how well those work, but the biggest problem with wordpress (in my opinion, of course) is that it doesn’t allow for threaded discussions within the comments. (Livejournal, I’m afraid, is head and shoulders above the rest of the blogging systems in that regard.) Something that would manage the comments might help encourage interaction, and make people feel that they are engaging in an ongoing discussion.
Loving the show, btw. Good for you for throwing things open and asking us for suggestions about the website, and I’m lookinig forward to seeing what a redesign brings.
October 30th, 2005 at 5:46 am
I agree that a chat room would be great, especially if Chris (or somebody else directly involved with the show) was interacting with the people in it. Other than that, the show is great; it’s always thought-provoking and relevant.
October 30th, 2005 at 8:59 pm
Regarding the content of the shows in the beginning there was, I thought, too much self-conscious talk about the technical end of things while Rome is burning. I tuned out and let you talk shop on those evenings. That the medium is the message does not interest me more than the content itself except to be grateful that now anyone, can contribute to the conversation more easily.
The more “frivolous” topics are enjoyable and I would miss them but I am glad you are now flexible enough to postpone those shows when there is something important happening in the news. Four nights a week does not allow for much frivolity in a world of very serious problems but on the other hand we do need the relief and broadening as well as something to keep our spirits up. I still want to hear for instance on literature or history, astrophysics or about a life that has just passed. These topics sometimes refer back to our problems anyway and give insight.
I echo what someone said above about hoping that you read the suggestions thread; there a lot of good suggestions there. It’s great to be able to suggest a show and have it considered even if the suggestion is not used.
The web site seems well tended. I urge you to continue to cultivate it. This is so much better than those forums attached to radio shows that tell us to “have at it� and the host and staff are nowhere to be found. The relationship with you folks who are creating the show is what makes Open Source special.
So I am hoping that you will keep the site engaging, even compelling. with more supplements ( links, audio clips, photographs, drawings etc.) to the radio shows.
I love the blogmeister’s little “ads� during the radio show breaks about what’s on the site.
One problem that I find I have is that there is so much information coming at me now, more than ever, that I have to learn how to sort out and decide where to devote my limited time. Open Source really helps to sort and discriminate and summarize. We need to be seeing the important trends and issues, For instance Hurricane Katrina was an excellent opportunity to start talking about the new urban planning and from a larger perspective- which you did on the show about rebuilding the gulf coast. That was also part of the discussion about how we will have to adjust our living habits to survive a little longer on this planet, tying into the climate change series and so on.
It all fits together in some crazy way. So I would not like to see the blog organized into categories walled off from one another (ie politics, science, religion etc.)
Again, thanks for asking and thanks for listening……..
October 31st, 2005 at 2:14 pm
You’ve got a great show again, Chris. I’ve been a fan for a decade.
Here are some tactical ideas, followed by some more strategic ones:
Tactical ideas that tie into the intractive nature of the show:
1) Let visitors sign up for an email that gets sent the moment the topic for the night is finalized. I find myself checking the site a couple of times before it is updated for the day. Early notice of topics will result in more pre-show comments and questions which in turn will make the show richer.
2) Have an ongoing survey where people could vote for things they want to hear more about (jazz, pandemics, pension reform, education e.g.) and things they don’t want to hear much about (comic books, knitting, e.g. — no offense intended).
3) Maintain a list of recommended external links associated with each show, so people can dig further into the topic after the show is over.
4) Let visitors vote or comment on the experts you have on the shows. Some would be great to have back again (Jeff Sachs, e.g.). Others not so much.
5) Let visitors vote on the shows after the fact, on a range of standard factors (timeliness, uniqueness, insight, overall value, whatever). This is standard business practice, so you can learn from the “customers” and improve incrementally.
6) I second the idea of a more formalized suggestion box, with feedback, even if the feedback is a simple “thanks for the input”. Ideally it would occasionally rise above that to spark an interactive dialog. Note that this is different from Suggest A Show; not all suggestions are about show topics.
7) Host an open discussion board for your visitors/fans to interact without you having to be in the middle. I’d bet you’d find like-minded people coming up with new ideas, including ways to help out. Groups could include discussions of how to get more public radio stations to pick up the show, pointers to emerging resources at an early stage, etc.
On the Marketing / Positioning Front:
You’ve got the chance to position yourself as one of the leading interfaces between the old and new media, with your history, expertise, credibility, and contacts in each area. Some ideas:
1) Let media folks sign up for an email sent after each show. The email would include a brief summary of the show, a list of the best pull-quotes, a list of the people (expert or not) speaking on the show who declare themselves to be available for further media use, etc. You might become a destination for old media types who want a gentle boost into the new world, and you might find the new media folks valuing you as a way to access the more established media people.
2) Host a board where established media people could request input from your visitors. Again, you can be a go-to resource of sorts. If you’re worried about other media encroaching on your turn, you could limit these sorts of things to selected partners where the value would go both ways.
A lot of this flows in the same direction: the radio station can be just the “anchor store” for a larger mission. The current web site is just the first step towards an organization that provides value to visitors even when the show isn’t live.
Hope this is somewhat helpful. Contact me for clarifications or anything else at avecfrites@yahoo.com
October 31st, 2005 at 8:04 pm
I heartily second Rochelle’s call for threaded comments. I think that threaded comments are actually one of the key technical featured that have allowed Livejournal to grow as a true community (or rather, community of myriad subcommunities and venn-diagramesque-overlaps). Threaded commenting makes a comments page into a conversation; unthreaded commenting feels like talking to a wall. And, hey, if there’d been threaded comments, I could’ve added my comment under Rochelle’s, and kept comments of the same topic together - also very helpful in fostering conversation.
Also, if we’re talking about “things Livejournal has that foster community & conversation,” two other biggies are the ability to get comments you make emailed to you, and the ability to receive comments made in a thread to a comment you make. Seeing your original comment in your inbox puts the topic you commented on back into your mind, sometimes bringing you back to the page to see if there’s anything new there. And receiving a comment someone else has made in response to your own is golden. It means someone else is listening - and appreciating what you, yes you, had to say! Or, heck, taking issue with it! Either way, that comment notification email re-engages someone who otherwise has been to the page, said her piece, and gone home. (I’m not sure what WP has for technical chops on these, but I’d be surprised if there aren’t plug-ins to make it optional, esp. when users already authenticate so there’s not a spam worry.)
Looking forward to tomorrow!
October 31st, 2005 at 10:09 pm
This is me nodding vigorously to everything Erica is saying. I guess the idea here is the same as it is for just about anything else; what business are you in, and what can the internet offer you that leads toward that specific goal?
I really like the blog. It’s clean and organized, and I don’t need email reminders about show topics (I have a newsreader for that). I think content or organizing isn’t the problem you’re facing; it’s engaging the audience who reaches you through the internet. And of all the problems to have, that’s the easiest one to solve. If you’re interested in creating a community of engaged listeners who not only tune in but participate actively, there are lots of tools around to help with that.
I’ve already pointed out some of the things available: if you want people to think outloud and create something collaborative (a document, an idea, etc), something wikified is the way to go. With a wiki, the focus is on the document, the project at hand. If you want to foster discussion, more sophisticated comments would go a long way (Erica pointed out threading and email, which, I agree with her, make for a completely different kind of blog interactivity, and LiveJournal is much maligned in spite of being the very best at this), and some form of live chat. There are lots of different options for chat, from open-to-anyone IRC to a more account-driven MOO system and a million things in between.
There are other things availble too, ideas swirling around and popping out of nowhere: I don’t know if you’ve seen slawesome yet (http://slawesome.com/); this is a flash recorder/player that allows any user with a browser and a microphone to record and send audio messages. Since this is a radio show, you could solicit audio clips from users as well (questions, comments, etc). Or something like http://www.audblog.com/ which allows people to post audio to a blog via telephone. If you’re looking for radio that sounds like the internet…I could mention Skype, but I won’t, because it’s just telephony. Telephony is one of the least interesting parts of web 2.0 to me. The web still sounds like text to me, which is perhaps what we as listeners can best offer; you guys to do the audio so darn well. But we can definitely fill in a lot of (synchronous, asynchronous, polysynchronous) text around it.
All this is to say: there are lots of different directions you could go, and I’m sure you will pick the route that is best for you. I’m very much looking forward to hearing what the Berkman folks think.
November 1st, 2005 at 3:56 am
I agree with most of the comments about improving the forums by introducing threading and webchats durng the broadcast. Here’s my writeup, mostly focusing on the technical architecture:
http://civilities.net/RadioOpenSource
I could hold off on all of the aural extensions for now– would be very difficult to follow.
I may possibly make it tomorrow at lunch. What time?
November 1st, 2005 at 4:12 am
I love current events Chris but More Art would be awesome - more Art, more Art! “Hardly a man takes a half-hour’s nap after dinner,” Thoreau lamented, “but when he wakes he holds up his head and asks, ‘What’s the news?’ ”
OH, and some Philosophy wouldn’t hurt either.
You do Rock though Chris - you do rock.
November 1st, 2005 at 11:34 am
Jon - The lunch is RSVP-required but due to a cancellation this morning I do have one slot available. Let me know if you want it…
If you can’t make it in person we’re planning to webcast it (as we do for all Berkman lunches).
November 1st, 2005 at 11:41 am
Hey nother-
I agree. We should do more art shows. Would you like to pitch us some? Are there particular artists you’d like to hear on the radio? (We had on graphic novelists Chris Ware and Charles Burns the other night, in case you missed it.) There was also a recommendation to do a show in our race series about black artists whose work addressed contemporary concerns about race, which we really liked and which I will be looking into.
Other than that, what would you like to hear?
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:59 pm
I would love to see an enhanced “google style” search capability and a frequently asked questions page to help indoctrinate newbies integrated into the website.
November 4th, 2005 at 2:24 am
Hey Robin,
Thank you for acknowledging my post, I shouldn’t be surprised that you are listening to us, but I’m surprised nonetheless. You are slowly chipping away at my ingrained cynicism/skepticism built up from years of listening to radio DJ’s disingenuously ask for requests, while they simultaneously flip on their pre-programmed music list. This is, alas, a perpetual conversation we are having, and it is always nice to realize that the other party is listening. As Emerson tells us, “Conversation is a game of circles,� and you are doing your part to complete the circle. When I’m engaged in this Open Source conversation- to quote Emerson once more- I “enjoy the cloven flame whilst it glows on our walls.�
I want to say that I do believe the hype when it comes to the impact of blogging. Unfortunately, I still feel a disconnect to the blogging world that Chris mentions so frequently. My connection come from this website and that’s great, but it would be even better if you used the site as more of a porthole to the blogging world that influences all of you. All I’m talking about is a link section to the blogs and websites that Chris and the producers are checking out. Kind of like the staff recommendation section at our local bookstore. Considering my lack of time, I would simply like some cyber-space directions from my new cyber-spacy friends. �
Suggestions for shows on Art:
Thearter- A conversation with Ed Siegel from the Globe concerning the state of Theater, the New Rep, August Wilson, ext. The greatest African American playwright just died and you guys haven’t talked about it.
http://www.witness.org/ puts the camera in the hands of human rights defenders.
Rap music should be given respect in the Monday series, it is the voice of black youth, it is the rebel music that Jazz was in the past. In fifty years there will be a middle aged progressive white man like Chris on the radio giving props to the great rappers in the same way that Chris gives props to Bird and Mingus. Terry Gross has beaten Chris to the punch on this.
I’m going to shut up for now but I plan to have fun thinking of potential shows discussing anything but the news.
November 4th, 2005 at 2:40 am
DJ Spooky
Saul Williams
Russell Simmons
We can talk about how the rappers have been blogging in their own way, for years.
November 4th, 2005 at 6:48 pm
Looking forward to the complete accounting from the Berkman lunch…
November 4th, 2005 at 7:01 pm
And you’re right to ask for it, Rochelle. I’m busy responding to all of this week’s show suggestions; promise this weekend.
November 6th, 2005 at 6:51 pm
Looking for the write-up as well! Rochelle, I did stop by the lunch to listen in, but I had to duck out halfway to get back to work (closer to the MIT side of Cambridge). There were many ROS affiliates and Berkam affiliates there.
ps. nother– You should read Rappers and Bloggers: Separated at Birth by Josh Levin. One of the most enjoyable pieces written on blogging I’ve ever read. To wit: “Public Enemy’s Chuck D once said that rap music was the black CNN. After busting a cap in Eason Jordan’s ass, what are bloggers now if not the white CNN?”