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	<title>Comments on: Bigotry 101: &quot;A Night in November&quot;</title>
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	<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/</link>
	<description>Christopher Lydon in conversation on arts, ideas and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Ira Rollover WebLog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Share A Smile Foundation</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/#comment-81174</link>
		<dc:creator>Ira Rollover WebLog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Share A Smile Foundation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=817#comment-81174</guid>
		<description>[...] the harm that bad behavior can do (e.g., giving us technology like &#8230; 	http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/ 	   	Service Abov [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the harm that bad behavior can do (e.g., giving us technology like &#8230; 	<a  href="http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/" rel="nofollow">http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/</a> 	   	Service Abov [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ira Rollover WebLog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Share A Smile Foundation</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/#comment-81175</link>
		<dc:creator>Ira Rollover WebLog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Share A Smile Foundation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=817#comment-81175</guid>
		<description>[...] the harm that bad behavior can do (e.g., giving us technology like &#8230; 	http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/ 	   	Service Abov [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the harm that bad behavior can do (e.g., giving us technology like &#8230; 	<a  href="http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/" rel="nofollow">http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/</a> 	   	Service Abov [...]</p>
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		<title>By: rc21</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/#comment-81173</link>
		<dc:creator>rc21</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=817#comment-81173</guid>
		<description>To plnelson;  I was kidding. Sorry lame attempts at humor don&#039;t come across well on the net.  By the way crime stats show violence among young women in the USA is rising dramatically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To plnelson;  I was kidding. Sorry lame attempts at humor don&#8217;t come across well on the net.  By the way crime stats show violence among young women in the USA is rising dramatically.</p>
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		<title>By: plnelson</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/#comment-81172</link>
		<dc:creator>plnelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=817#comment-81172</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;To plnelson; Why do men band together and commit violent acts?I think itâ€™s called testosterone. &lt;/i&gt;



Lots of people think lots of things.    But even if your idea were true it wouldn&#039;t explain why some males with high testosterone level engage in ths behavior and others don&#039;t.   Nor would it explain cultural differences.   The bottom line is that your idea is nothing more than a personal opinion  - we have no good science on this stuff.



Nonetheless, I think that space aliens coming here for the first time would quickly see highly destructive violence by groups of men as one of the most salient features of our species, and the things that set off that violence -  religious differences, political or economic disputes, etc, as secondary.



In the case of mental illness, I&#039;m perfectly willing to concede that real-world stresses -  relationship problems, job stress or loss, economic difficulties, can &quot;set off&quot; someone prone to depression or anxiety disorders, just as the social conditions in the prior paragraph can set off male violence.    But there&#039;s only so far you can go in trying to treat mental illness by eliminating stress.   Ultimately you have to treat the disease itself.



It&#039;s all fine and good to try to &quot;treat&quot; male violence by reducing social inequities, providing more economic opportunity or improving social justice.    But the data on whether that actually &lt;b&gt;works&lt;/b&gt; is very inconclusive.    It&#039;s a bit like dealing with a homicidal maniac by not saying the phrase &quot;Niagra Falls&quot; around him.    That works fine until someone slips up.  It&#039;s better to get him some treatment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>To plnelson; Why do men band together and commit violent acts?I think itâ€™s called testosterone. </i></p>
<p>Lots of people think lots of things.    But even if your idea were true it wouldn&#8217;t explain why some males with high testosterone level engage in ths behavior and others don&#8217;t.   Nor would it explain cultural differences.   The bottom line is that your idea is nothing more than a personal opinion  &#8211; we have no good science on this stuff.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, I think that space aliens coming here for the first time would quickly see highly destructive violence by groups of men as one of the most salient features of our species, and the things that set off that violence &#8211;  religious differences, political or economic disputes, etc, as secondary.</p>
<p>In the case of mental illness, I&#8217;m perfectly willing to concede that real-world stresses &#8211;  relationship problems, job stress or loss, economic difficulties, can &#8220;set off&#8221; someone prone to depression or anxiety disorders, just as the social conditions in the prior paragraph can set off male violence.    But there&#8217;s only so far you can go in trying to treat mental illness by eliminating stress.   Ultimately you have to treat the disease itself.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s all fine and good to try to &#8220;treat&#8221; male violence by reducing social inequities, providing more economic opportunity or improving social justice.    But the data on whether that actually <b>works</b> is very inconclusive.    It&#8217;s a bit like dealing with a homicidal maniac by not saying the phrase &#8220;Niagra Falls&#8221; around him.    That works fine until someone slips up.  It&#8217;s better to get him some treatment.</p>
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		<title>By: rc21</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/#comment-81171</link>
		<dc:creator>rc21</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=817#comment-81171</guid>
		<description>To plnelson;  Why do men band together and commit violent acts?I think it&#039;s called testosterone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To plnelson;  Why do men band together and commit violent acts?I think it&#8217;s called testosterone.</p>
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		<title>By: plnelson</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/#comment-81170</link>
		<dc:creator>plnelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 18:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=817#comment-81170</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Understanding â€œwhy we are the way we areâ€ to what end? It doesnâ€™t matter how long, or how hard or how rigorously we study a why a fish is the way it is, its never going to be able to live on land and serve us our coffee at Starbucks. Prior attempts to re-organize society along â€œenlightened scientific theoryâ€ led to scientific socialism and its cousin fascist eugenics, and both of these attempts to apply a scientific understanding of man filled a lot of graves. &quot;&lt;/i&gt;



First of all, calling something &quot;scientific&quot; doesn&#039;t make it scientific.   The fact is that we have nothing resembling hard science to describe human behavior or societies.



As far as &quot;reorganizing society&quot; -  &lt;b&gt;ALL&lt;/b&gt; policies and theories, whether they have to do with crime, economics, politics, or foreign policy, are based on some ideas or other but none of those ideas have any scientific rigor.  In other words people are goin to try to structure society anyway, so it would be nice if they had a clue.



Young men get together in groups, arm themselves and do harm to other people that they pereceive are not in their group.    Are these young men street criminals, NAZI stormtroopers, Hezbollah guerrillas, Tamil Tigers, Crusaders for Pope Urban II, Union and Confederate soldiers at the battle of Antietam, Catholics and Protestants in Ulster, Shiites and Sunnies in Iraq, or headhunters on some remore Pacific island?   Does it matter?



I don&#039;t think it matters as much as everyone else here does.  What &lt;b&gt;I&#039;M suggesting&lt;/b&gt; is that it&#039;s like talking about whether the schizophrenic thinks that he&#039;s Napoleon, or believes that space aliens are beaming messages into his head, or imagines that he has an invisible green girlfriend.   &lt;b&gt;It&#039;s still the same disease&lt;/b&gt;.



The propensity of male humans to get together in groups and do violent harm to people outside their group is a big problem in our world and lies at the root of many other problems.  It cuts across culture and history and there&#039;s pretty good evidence that some other primates (e.g., chimps)  also share this trait.    Given that much of human history is written in the blood spilled by these young men it&#039;s &lt;b&gt;amazing&lt;/b&gt; that we have no scientific understanding of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Understanding â€œwhy we are the way we areâ€ to what end? It doesnâ€™t matter how long, or how hard or how rigorously we study a why a fish is the way it is, its never going to be able to live on land and serve us our coffee at Starbucks. Prior attempts to re-organize society along â€œenlightened scientific theoryâ€ led to scientific socialism and its cousin fascist eugenics, and both of these attempts to apply a scientific understanding of man filled a lot of graves. &#8220;</i></p>
<p>First of all, calling something &#8220;scientific&#8221; doesn&#8217;t make it scientific.   The fact is that we have nothing resembling hard science to describe human behavior or societies.</p>
<p>As far as &#8220;reorganizing society&#8221; &#8211;  <b>ALL</b> policies and theories, whether they have to do with crime, economics, politics, or foreign policy, are based on some ideas or other but none of those ideas have any scientific rigor.  In other words people are goin to try to structure society anyway, so it would be nice if they had a clue.</p>
<p>Young men get together in groups, arm themselves and do harm to other people that they pereceive are not in their group.    Are these young men street criminals, NAZI stormtroopers, Hezbollah guerrillas, Tamil Tigers, Crusaders for Pope Urban II, Union and Confederate soldiers at the battle of Antietam, Catholics and Protestants in Ulster, Shiites and Sunnies in Iraq, or headhunters on some remore Pacific island?   Does it matter?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it matters as much as everyone else here does.  What <b>I&#8217;M suggesting</b> is that it&#8217;s like talking about whether the schizophrenic thinks that he&#8217;s Napoleon, or believes that space aliens are beaming messages into his head, or imagines that he has an invisible green girlfriend.   <b>It&#8217;s still the same disease</b>.</p>
<p>The propensity of male humans to get together in groups and do violent harm to people outside their group is a big problem in our world and lies at the root of many other problems.  It cuts across culture and history and there&#8217;s pretty good evidence that some other primates (e.g., chimps)  also share this trait.    Given that much of human history is written in the blood spilled by these young men it&#8217;s <b>amazing</b> that we have no scientific understanding of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Randolph Carter</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/#comment-81169</link>
		<dc:creator>Randolph Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Nov 2006 16:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=817#comment-81169</guid>
		<description>Marty Maguire made several inaccurate statements: he described the republic of ireland soccer team as a &#039;catholic&#039; team - it is no more a &#039;catholic&#039; team than the german or english international teams are &#039;protestant&#039; teams; nobody&#039;s knows what religion any of the players are and nobody cares..he also described northern ireland and republic of ireland teams as mortal enemies..the hatred exists on one side only... people in the republic would tend either to passively support the north or be indifferent towards them... christopher lydon continually referred to &#039;irish&#039; sectarian prejudice... one could argue that that the catholic v protestant thing seeped across from scotland - which has a long history of anti-catholic establishment bias - into the north..certainly it&#039;s never stretched any further than the six counties...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marty Maguire made several inaccurate statements: he described the republic of ireland soccer team as a &#8216;catholic&#8217; team &#8211; it is no more a &#8216;catholic&#8217; team than the german or english international teams are &#8216;protestant&#8217; teams; nobody&#8217;s knows what religion any of the players are and nobody cares..he also described northern ireland and republic of ireland teams as mortal enemies..the hatred exists on one side only&#8230; people in the republic would tend either to passively support the north or be indifferent towards them&#8230; christopher lydon continually referred to &#8216;irish&#8217; sectarian prejudice&#8230; one could argue that that the catholic v protestant thing seeped across from scotland &#8211; which has a long history of anti-catholic establishment bias &#8211; into the north..certainly it&#8217;s never stretched any further than the six counties&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: rowanm</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/#comment-81168</link>
		<dc:creator>rowanm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=817#comment-81168</guid>
		<description>what i heard of the show sounded like typical nationalist propaganda. it portrayed protestants as bigots and catholics as victims. i think the woman who wrote it is at least in some respect an appologist for terrorism. chris asked a good question about whether the show was imbalanced, and the actor evaded it more or less, but outside of that chris seemed to just swallow whatever was presented, such as when the play demonized unionist politicians as being the cause of loyalist terrorism. but americans have always tended to like the nationalist side better, and without american money and support the troubles may never have lasted so long. there is blood on american hands, and as kenneth mcallister says, &quot;i am ashamed.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what i heard of the show sounded like typical nationalist propaganda. it portrayed protestants as bigots and catholics as victims. i think the woman who wrote it is at least in some respect an appologist for terrorism. chris asked a good question about whether the show was imbalanced, and the actor evaded it more or less, but outside of that chris seemed to just swallow whatever was presented, such as when the play demonized unionist politicians as being the cause of loyalist terrorism. but americans have always tended to like the nationalist side better, and without american money and support the troubles may never have lasted so long. there is blood on american hands, and as kenneth mcallister says, &#8220;i am ashamed.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: loki</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/#comment-81167</link>
		<dc:creator>loki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great show, I have been in Belfast and have walked Falls Road and Shankel Road. I meet Gerry Adams at the Redemptrist Monastery. It would have been great to have Kevin Cullen on the show. No one knows the &quot;troubles&quot; better than Kevin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great show, I have been in Belfast and have walked Falls Road and Shankel Road. I meet Gerry Adams at the Redemptrist Monastery. It would have been great to have Kevin Cullen on the show. No one knows the &#8220;troubles&#8221; better than Kevin.</p>
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		<title>By: 1st/14th</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/bigotry-101-a-night-in-november/#comment-81166</link>
		<dc:creator>1st/14th</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=817#comment-81166</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;We can yack all we want, either on ROS or in Congress, but it will avail us nothing until we start to develop a rigorous scientific biological understanding of why we are the way we are. &lt;/i&gt;



Understanding â€œwhy we are the way we areâ€ to what end? It doesnâ€™t matter how long, or how hard or how rigorously we study a why a fish is the way it is, its never going to be able to live on land and serve us our coffee at Starbucks. Prior attempts to re-organize society along â€œenlightened scientific theoryâ€ led to scientific socialism and its cousin fascist eugenics, and both of these attempts to apply a scientific understanding of man filled a lot of graves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>We can yack all we want, either on ROS or in Congress, but it will avail us nothing until we start to develop a rigorous scientific biological understanding of why we are the way we are. </i></p>
<p>Understanding â€œwhy we are the way we areâ€ to what end? It doesnâ€™t matter how long, or how hard or how rigorously we study a why a fish is the way it is, its never going to be able to live on land and serve us our coffee at Starbucks. Prior attempts to re-organize society along â€œenlightened scientific theoryâ€ led to scientific socialism and its cousin fascist eugenics, and both of these attempts to apply a scientific understanding of man filled a lot of graves.</p>
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