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	<title>Comments on: Condi&#039;s Turn, To Diplomacy</title>
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	<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/</link>
	<description>Christopher Lydon in conversation on arts, ideas and politics</description>
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		<title>By: tbrucia</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/#comment-74807</link>
		<dc:creator>tbrucia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 11:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=549#comment-74807</guid>
		<description>This conversation has meandered into &#039;regime change&#039; -- a topic not mentioned at &#039;the top&#039; of this page.... interesting that rodanz brought it into this discussion.  If the chief executive of the American government is to be &#039;The Decider&#039; of what regimes should be changed, here&#039;s a list of some that have a worse history than Iran:  North Korea, Zimbabwe, Turkmenistan, Belarus, Burma, Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, Sudan.... and I could continue.  In each of these nations, the first question should be, changed to what?  There&#039;s a cynical Spanish proverb, &#039;Despues del malo viene el peor&#039; (After the bad comes the worse) -- obviously not true of that very fortunate nation.  But very apropos of many other places.  Change is simply change, and regime change can simply mean changing regimes.  No one seems to know how to control the genie, simply how to release him from his bottle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This conversation has meandered into &#8216;regime change&#8217; &#8212; a topic not mentioned at &#8216;the top&#8217; of this page&#8230;. interesting that rodanz brought it into this discussion.  If the chief executive of the American government is to be &#8216;The Decider&#8217; of what regimes should be changed, here&#8217;s a list of some that have a worse history than Iran:  North Korea, Zimbabwe, Turkmenistan, Belarus, Burma, Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, Sudan&#8230;. and I could continue.  In each of these nations, the first question should be, changed to what?  There&#8217;s a cynical Spanish proverb, &#8216;Despues del malo viene el peor&#8217; (After the bad comes the worse) &#8212; obviously not true of that very fortunate nation.  But very apropos of many other places.  Change is simply change, and regime change can simply mean changing regimes.  No one seems to know how to control the genie, simply how to release him from his bottle.</p>
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		<title>By: scribe5</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/#comment-74806</link>
		<dc:creator>scribe5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=549#comment-74806</guid>
		<description>IggyG Says:



&quot;I suspect had Poland requested and received assistance in turning back the Germans there would have been calls for regime change. In Berlin in German.&quot;





The ignorance of some of these posters is astounding.



No wonder they take the views they do.







Hey read a book about the German invasion of Poland. It might surprise you to find out that it triggered WW2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IggyG Says:</p>
<p>&#8220;I suspect had Poland requested and received assistance in turning back the Germans there would have been calls for regime change. In Berlin in German.&#8221;</p>
<p>The ignorance of some of these posters is astounding.</p>
<p>No wonder they take the views they do.</p>
<p>Hey read a book about the German invasion of Poland. It might surprise you to find out that it triggered WW2.</p>
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		<title>By: allison</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/#comment-74805</link>
		<dc:creator>allison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 18:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=549#comment-74805</guid>
		<description>rodanz, no one is suggesting that regime change isn&#039;t necessary sometimes. The problem is that we think we are the arbiters of when and how it should happen. We usually don&#039;t do anything until we have to threaten invasion. So, of course, if you let things get to the most extreme, you can justify extreme responses. The problem is that we don&#039;t help the helpless until we think we are helping ourselves by doing so. Then, when we do, we abandon people to the mess we leave behind.



There are peaceful ways to let citizens within a country know we support them and will pressure their destructive leaders until they no longer have control or use unacceptable methods of governance. When force feels necessary, a truly global peacekeeping force is far preferable to a war-like invasion.



Do regimes hold their citizens hostage? Well, yes. I feel held hostage right now.  I have the right to vote and the supposed freedom of speech but I cannot effect a regime change here because the regime controls too many of the mechanisms that would enlighten us as to what&#039;s really going on. And the people with the most money are benefitting. So our system of unjust governance is not likely to change. And we&#039;re not likely to ever give up our inimitable cache of nuclear weapons.



So, if another country with enough firepower decides that we need regime change, is it okay for them to attack and invade us? Will you welcome them if your family members were killed along the way?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rodanz, no one is suggesting that regime change isn&#8217;t necessary sometimes. The problem is that we think we are the arbiters of when and how it should happen. We usually don&#8217;t do anything until we have to threaten invasion. So, of course, if you let things get to the most extreme, you can justify extreme responses. The problem is that we don&#8217;t help the helpless until we think we are helping ourselves by doing so. Then, when we do, we abandon people to the mess we leave behind.</p>
<p>There are peaceful ways to let citizens within a country know we support them and will pressure their destructive leaders until they no longer have control or use unacceptable methods of governance. When force feels necessary, a truly global peacekeeping force is far preferable to a war-like invasion.</p>
<p>Do regimes hold their citizens hostage? Well, yes. I feel held hostage right now.  I have the right to vote and the supposed freedom of speech but I cannot effect a regime change here because the regime controls too many of the mechanisms that would enlighten us as to what&#8217;s really going on. And the people with the most money are benefitting. So our system of unjust governance is not likely to change. And we&#8217;re not likely to ever give up our inimitable cache of nuclear weapons.</p>
<p>So, if another country with enough firepower decides that we need regime change, is it okay for them to attack and invade us? Will you welcome them if your family members were killed along the way?</p>
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		<title>By: George Fiala</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/#comment-74804</link>
		<dc:creator>George Fiala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=549#comment-74804</guid>
		<description>Dear Rodanz,



You are so worried about human rights in Iran. Are you equally concerned about human rights in Iraq, Panama, Nicaragua and Grenada - 4 places in which we were directly responsible for the removal of a sovereign head of state?



Why not start with those four countries, and once things are great for citizens of those states, then you can start worrying about the rest of the world.



One place I would vote for humanitarian intervention would be Zimbabwe, but that&#039;s not on our agenda for some odd reason...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Rodanz,</p>
<p>You are so worried about human rights in Iran. Are you equally concerned about human rights in Iraq, Panama, Nicaragua and Grenada &#8211; 4 places in which we were directly responsible for the removal of a sovereign head of state?</p>
<p>Why not start with those four countries, and once things are great for citizens of those states, then you can start worrying about the rest of the world.</p>
<p>One place I would vote for humanitarian intervention would be Zimbabwe, but that&#8217;s not on our agenda for some odd reason&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: rodanz</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/#comment-74803</link>
		<dc:creator>rodanz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=549#comment-74803</guid>
		<description>Regime change as suggested by Reza Pahlavi is the RIGHT of all Iranians.



Don&#039;t tell me &quot;regime change starts at home&quot;. I don&#039;t care for the current White House, but mine is not a knee jerk bumper sticker liberal reaction.



It&#039;s funny, actually what Reza Pahlavi is saying is that regime change does start at home. So, let the people of Iran be empowered to create changes in their OWN country.



The more we talk to these mullah dictators the more we give them legitimacy. Let&#039;s sanction the government. Ban the mullahs from traveling around the world, stop their bank accounts and all the ficticious businesses they own outside Iran.



The point is that by allowing the people of Iran - those who live in Iran - to feel that we are on their side, and by side-lining the regime we (and the rest of the free world) will be advocating a more representative government for the Iranian people.



I am not a neocon, but the only way to stand up for human rights in Iran is to allow the people have their voice. Today these voices are stifled. If you don&#039;t belive me starting reading some of the blogs coming out of Iran. Go to www.hoder.com for a complete list.



We are not doing the Iranian people any favor by allowing the regime to play this negotiation game. It is the Iranian people who suffer the most. See www.rezapahlavi.org for more. At the end of the day the current regime is holding its citizens hostage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regime change as suggested by Reza Pahlavi is the RIGHT of all Iranians.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t tell me &#8220;regime change starts at home&#8221;. I don&#8217;t care for the current White House, but mine is not a knee jerk bumper sticker liberal reaction.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s funny, actually what Reza Pahlavi is saying is that regime change does start at home. So, let the people of Iran be empowered to create changes in their OWN country.</p>
<p>The more we talk to these mullah dictators the more we give them legitimacy. Let&#8217;s sanction the government. Ban the mullahs from traveling around the world, stop their bank accounts and all the ficticious businesses they own outside Iran.</p>
<p>The point is that by allowing the people of Iran &#8211; those who live in Iran &#8211; to feel that we are on their side, and by side-lining the regime we (and the rest of the free world) will be advocating a more representative government for the Iranian people.</p>
<p>I am not a neocon, but the only way to stand up for human rights in Iran is to allow the people have their voice. Today these voices are stifled. If you don&#8217;t belive me starting reading some of the blogs coming out of Iran. Go to <a  href="http://www.hoder.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.hoder.com</a> for a complete list.</p>
<p>We are not doing the Iranian people any favor by allowing the regime to play this negotiation game. It is the Iranian people who suffer the most. See <a  href="http://www.rezapahlavi.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.rezapahlavi.org</a> for more. At the end of the day the current regime is holding its citizens hostage.</p>
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		<title>By: rawehage</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/#comment-74802</link>
		<dc:creator>rawehage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=549#comment-74802</guid>
		<description>Demeter,



I agree. There are more appropriate words for rice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Demeter,</p>
<p>I agree. There are more appropriate words for rice.</p>
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		<title>By: IggyG</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/#comment-74801</link>
		<dc:creator>IggyG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 06:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=549#comment-74801</guid>
		<description>I suspect had Poland requested and received assistance in turning back the Germans there would have been calls for regime change.  In Berlin in German.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect had Poland requested and received assistance in turning back the Germans there would have been calls for regime change.  In Berlin in German.</p>
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		<title>By: scribe5</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/#comment-74800</link>
		<dc:creator>scribe5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=549#comment-74800</guid>
		<description>&quot;Calling for regime change in any county other than ones own is horrifically arrogant and violates the sovereignty of the other country.&quot;



I suppose this poster would have been happy not to see regime change in Germany Russia, or Italy in the 1930&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Calling for regime change in any county other than ones own is horrifically arrogant and violates the sovereignty of the other country.&#8221;</p>
<p>I suppose this poster would have been happy not to see regime change in Germany Russia, or Italy in the 1930&#8242;s.</p>
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		<title>By: George Fiala</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/#comment-74799</link>
		<dc:creator>George Fiala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 03:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=549#comment-74799</guid>
		<description>Since regime change in Panama, the average Panamanian is no better off than under Noriega, except for the fact that US sanctions have been replaced by US business as usual. The upper class has had their incomes restored however.



&#039;Regime change&#039; in Panama was illegal and history has shown it to have been simply a ploy by the Bush administration to eliminate a political nuisance, with perhaps thousands of civilian deaths a byproduct.



I would highly recommend a show on revisiting the Panama invasion... in it are all the seeds of today&#039;s foreign policy disasters with many of the same players (Cheney, Powell, Eliot Abrams, and more).



It&#039;ll be interesting to see the propaganda mill return as Noriega comes due for release next year. He was simply demonized as was Hussein and Clinton since... not to say that Noriega and Hussein were angels by a long shot, but they were no Hitlers. Interesting that the administration occasionally tries to pin the Hitler tag on Hugo Chavez and on the current leader of Iran, who lucky for him has an unmemorable name for westerners...



If anybody is a Hitler today to his people my vote goes to Mugabe in Africa, but he&#039;s allowed to rule merrily on.... no oil or Canal or pointed remarks to American presidents or their friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since regime change in Panama, the average Panamanian is no better off than under Noriega, except for the fact that US sanctions have been replaced by US business as usual. The upper class has had their incomes restored however.</p>
<p>&#8216;Regime change&#8217; in Panama was illegal and history has shown it to have been simply a ploy by the Bush administration to eliminate a political nuisance, with perhaps thousands of civilian deaths a byproduct.</p>
<p>I would highly recommend a show on revisiting the Panama invasion&#8230; in it are all the seeds of today&#8217;s foreign policy disasters with many of the same players (Cheney, Powell, Eliot Abrams, and more).</p>
<p>It&#8217;ll be interesting to see the propaganda mill return as Noriega comes due for release next year. He was simply demonized as was Hussein and Clinton since&#8230; not to say that Noriega and Hussein were angels by a long shot, but they were no Hitlers. Interesting that the administration occasionally tries to pin the Hitler tag on Hugo Chavez and on the current leader of Iran, who lucky for him has an unmemorable name for westerners&#8230;</p>
<p>If anybody is a Hitler today to his people my vote goes to Mugabe in Africa, but he&#8217;s allowed to rule merrily on&#8230;. no oil or Canal or pointed remarks to American presidents or their friends.</p>
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		<title>By: peggysue</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/condis-turn-to-diplomacy/#comment-74798</link>
		<dc:creator>peggysue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jun 2006 02:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=549#comment-74798</guid>
		<description>Demeter: I agree. As much as I despise Ms. Rice and feel like strangling her everytime I hear her speak, I cringe when people call her &quot;Condi&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Demeter: I agree. As much as I despise Ms. Rice and feel like strangling her everytime I hear her speak, I cringe when people call her &#8220;Condi&#8221;.</p>
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