I’m glad you are braver now that you’re free of debt (which is a wonderful accomplishment). When you say that you feel “just a little dirty” because of what you had to do in order to work with this person, I feel sympathetic, but it speaks for what a decent human being you are. The goal of my adult life has been to be able to hold my own, no matter what, to be true to myself no matter what, to stand up for what is right, no matter what. I am falling short all the time, because I have a lot of fear.

A long time ago, I read a book entitled THE BONDS OF LOVE by Jessica Benjamin. She said that Hegel maintained that in all interactions, one person is dominating another and it will always be that way. I don’t remember whether it was Benjamin or Hegel who said that after all revolutions, the first thing people do is establish a hierarchy. Benjamin, though, was writing about something called intersubjectivity, where each person in an interaction is working to maintain equality. No one is in authority. At the time, I also read a definition of trauma that involved violating someone’s integrity. I had to look up the definition of integrity, and that was how I learned that I was being traumatized on my job by my boss. It was the first time in my life that I understood the meaning of the word “integrity.” I was 48 years old.

I’ve noticed that when you have a position of authority but you try to work collaboratively with people, often they think you’re shirking your responsibilities, perhaps become angry that you’re not telling them what to do, even push for you to infantilize them. You asked for an example of work we could do collaboratively with people in a society where people learned to bring their souls into balance. EVERYTHING. Whatever was needed by the people, whatever people most wanted to share. People you’re teaching or working with might be a lot better than you are at a certain task, or someone in a group you’re assigned to supervise might have better ideas for a certain job or much more talent. Those kinds of things are threatening in hierarchical settings. If you’re the supervisor or teacher and you’re not the best, you might be seen as incompetent. If you’re in a position of authority but you learn from people you supervise, someone may accuse you of being unprofessional. Etc.

My interest in Eastern philosophies (and for me, it IS about philosophy, not religion) comes largely from experiences I have had while meditating. Amazing experiences that are better than anything I’ve ever felt. I just have my eyes open for whatever will explain these things or answer questions I have about life. I read bits and pieces. I also read the Tarot, not in the fortune telling sense but in a very spiritual sense. I just saw the film, TRAVELLERS AND MAGICIANS by K. Norbu, the Tibetan Buddhist monk, and I also loved his first film, THE CUP (PHORPA), about Tibetan monks. But I will probably never become Buddhist. Recently I have begun to listen to lectures given by J. Krishnamurti in the 1970’s. I just looked up “Krishnamurti+audio” in google and got a site that has audio archives. They’re very interesting. He discusses authority, how you, yourself, are the only authority that matters. I hope I’ve answered some of your questions.

Jazzman: I want to thank you for what you wrote. I always enjoy your comments and I was so surprised and delighted when I saw that you had written something to me. I’m grateful. Also, congratulations on your new granddaughter. She’s lucky to have been born into your family.

Wordsworth notes:
The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;
Little we see in Nature that is ours;

Capitalism free of cumbrances to achieve its ultimate conclusion would result in a single entity (oligarch) owning (i.e. controlling) all commodities and therefore the de facto authority on what will be produced and what choices are available at the pleasure of those in power.

Consumerism theoretically may be based in free choice out of the available (controlled/limited) choices and is dependent on the means to acquire the desired consumables.

As to the time in recorded history AFAIC the 1990’s was far more conducive to exercise one’s anti-authoritarian bent, far more than post 2001 hysteria and GWB’s usurping of civil rights in the name of safety and patriotism via Homeland Security and the Patriot Act.

I agree with your position 100%. I break no authoritarian proscriptions or laws with which I agree and I obey no authoritarian dicta with which I do not agree, save the exception of the instances in which the metaphorical gun is pointed at my head and then I comply till the threat has passed.

I agree that having one’s soul/psyche in balance is essential to successful interpersonal transaction and why I have taught my children (and now my grandchild(ren)) the philosophy of Absolute Morality, the reality of primary and secondary information and to recognize exploitation by FEAR and to resist such psychological manipulation. When people operate without fear of each other and themselves, the cooperation and empathy that is truly the nature of all consciousness rather than the Darwinian tooth & claw competitive struggle that is the current paradigm, holds sway.

rc21 Children indeed need structure (a safe, loving structure) in which to develop their potential to be their best selves. This may be accomplished by patience and explanation of what is expected within their ability to process the information.

Unfortunately it is often the case that they are inculcated by misguided parents, authorities (religious, academics, other adults etc.) before they possess the capacity to discriminate among these authoritative stimuli (large adults, and their power of certainty that they possess the “truth” are extremely influential and difficult to resist.)

In matters regarding questions of physical protection, authority relies on obedience and sometimes force to ensure the child’s best interest in their judgment; the problem is most do not consider the ramifications on one’s psyche of shoddy mental protection or even recognize it due to their own beliefs and prejudices.

I believe that people are largely alienated from themselves in a capitalistic economy, a consumerist society.”

These two statements are contradictory. Capitalism and consumerism are NOT based on obedience to authority. To the contrary, they are based on free, individual choice. ALL the other major economic systems are/were authority-based: socialism, communism, mercantilism, etc. In all of them there is some authority that decides what will be made or sold, what you can buy, what business or profession you can be in, who has trading or logging rights in a particular colony, etc.

As a hyper-individualist you should be thrilled to live in these times where you have so much personal choice. Is there any time in recordedhistory when you feel someone like you could exercise their anti-authoritarian instincts BETTER than in 2007?

The pitfalls of obedience – of course, how did no one mention that? I’d like to riff off your ideas a little. I believe that the focus on obedience in a consumerist society that you mention, is a direct result of us all being overextended financially. Most of us are in debt in America and as a consequence we are very fearful of losing our job. The fear of losing our job is so powerful that we compromise our dignity.

Personally I have succumbed to this more than once in my life. First it was when I was in the Navy. No matter how oppressive your boss is when you are in the military, you are beholden to that person, because they literally control your life. ONE bad review and your career can be compromised. In the military if you have a bad boss you can’t just say screw this I’m out of here – you’ll be in the brig. What would be the consequence of reacting to a bad boss if we had this compulsory service that’s been proposed?

After the Navy I went to grad school and in the process accumulated thousands in credit card debt. I decided to spend the last few months bartending to escape from that debt, and I just recently went into the black. I relay this story because I also just recently became braver when dealing with a rude bar manager. Let me be clear, I never kissed his butt – but I guess you could say that I appeased him a little too much. Now that I’m debt free – I’m free, but in many ways I feel just a little dirty because of my earlier compromises – no matter how small.

Katemcshane you write, “we might be able to think about national programs to allow people the opportunities to help other people with compassion, programs that would be run collaboratively, where everyone involved would learn from everyone else.”

Can you elaborate on this? It doesn’t have to be concrete, just some potential example. I’d also like to know an example of the Eastern readings you’ve been reading. It would also be great if you could jump over the Groundhog Day thread and respond to Jim Leff’s great Buddhist blog – that is of course if you’ve seen the movie.

In schools at the present time, chidren do not learn how to find their own centers, to trust themselves, to seek within themselves. Many (perhaps most) families are not equipped to teach their children how to do this. We focus on children’s ability or inability to obey. They’re medicated or referred to therapists for their “issues with authority.” I’ve worked in many programs supposedly designed to help children and families and in all of them, obedience to command or respect for authority was the hidden value above all others, whether the staff was supposed to follow orders of supervisors, or the clients were supposed to obey someone on the staff who was supposed to be helping them. An unstated political agenda operated at all times. Intelligence and sanity rarely contributed to thinking among the staff. Social control was the real task and people making the rules were invariably reactionary. Class differences figured prominently. Middle class people tended to make up the staff and working class or poor people were more likely to be clients. I noticed that middle class staff often found it easier to “obey” management without question and often, even when management made outrageous policies or treated people with very little respect, denied problems.

We want people to be in possession of themselves. We want people to be grounded. We want people to know what it’s like to respect their own integrity, to be respected. I would submit that many, many people have no idea what it means to HAVE integrity and are violated every day by bosses, teachers, parents, government officials, and other “authoritiy figures”. For the last several years, millions of people have had their own integrity violated by the president of this country and he has made it clear that he couldn’t care less what it feels like or what they think, because what they want, what they believe means nothing to him. This is no different (except in scale) from what is happening to people all their lives.

So, no, I would not go along with national service that emphasized obedience to command. I think it’s not a question of EITHER a “simple pleasure economy” or the inculcation of military values. I believe in self-discipline and self-possession. I believe in integrity and whatever any of us has to do to respect others’ integrity. Maybe that’s what emmettoconnell means by being subject to each other. I learned at a too early age what it means to have authority figures violate my integrity and I’ve been looking at authority with suspicion ever since. It has only been in the last few years, while meditating and reading about Eastern philosophies that I’ve learned about bringing my soul into balance.

It seems to me that if we could teach children about bringing their souls into balance, we might be able to think about national programs to allow people the opportunities to help other people with compassion, programs that would be run collaboratively, where everyone involved would learn from everyone else. This is where our strength would come from.

True leadership demanded that someone disobey that order and Air Force assets intercept and escort those airliners away to safely land in open fields far to the west. Abu Grahib is another appalling display of leadership failure from White House down to the boots on the ground.

Failure of leadership there cascaded into having soldiers sent to invade Afghanistan and Iraq. As we should all know by now that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda. Had no WMD. Did not and had no intention of attacking the US. Had every right to resist UN Inspectors looking for lost “WMD” since there weren’t any.

This radio program is based largely on military service in Iraq which is a war of choice based on “bad” intelligence at best. Someone having a Harvard education is expected to be well-schooled in critical thinking and would certainly question authority before voluntarily commiting to a military action unauthorized by the UN, the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, collaboration with widespread corruption fleecing the US tax payers of billions of dollars.

I’d like our understanding of service to be much broader as well. My favorite part of the bible is the section of Ephesians where John suggests that we “be subject to one another.” Despite the much misused following passages about husbands and wives, this is an incredibly democratic phrase from the bible, that as we related to each other, we should do it in a way of being subject to one another. I think this has a lot to say about service as well in a democracy, that it is done because we want to be subject to one another.

unless you are Henry David Thoreau

Thank you for the James Madison quote.

Shame on Schaeffer for being proud that his son did not take the path of least resistance and instead chose to serve his fellow countrymen. Naturally the individuals that Schaeffer was critical of were correct to point out that his son was wasting his talents by serving in such a rigid patriarchal crypto-fascist cult when such service is such a better suited for a farmers son in Iowa or the daughter of a immigrant drywaller in Miami.

And Shame on Chris Lydon for allowing the people to share their experiences with a wider audience not used to hearing this perspective in this format. What the hell do they think they are doing opening dialogue with this neo-imperialistic, garbage.

Clearly these people should have chosen to serve humanity by protesting against a nuclear power plant, vandalizing a recruiting station, or spending their summers in Cuba cutting sugar cane so that the “revolution” could prosper and serve as model to all those enslaved by the capitalist oligarchy.

Wow, I think I have to go vomit after writing that.

But here’s the abiding wisdom of William James on the military model of service, from the famous speech and essay of 1906,The Moral Equivalent of War — and remember James was a scientist of the Darwin era, who loved to remind his students and readers that we are all children of martial tribes, selected according to their inherited skill with tooth and claw and mobilization for combat:

“…modern man inherits all the innate pugnacity and all the love of glory of his ancestors. Showing war’s irrationality and horror is of no effect on him. The horrors make the fascination. War is the strong life; it is life in extremis; war taxes are the only ones men never hesitate to pay, as the budgets of all nations show us…

“All these beliefs of mine put me firmly into the anti-military party. But I do not believe that peace either ought to be or will be permanent on this globe, unless the states, pacifically organized, preserve some of the old elements of army-discipline. A permanently successful peace-economy cannot be a simple pleasure-economy. In the more or less socialistic future toward which mankind seems drifting we must still subject ourselves collectively to those severities which answer to our real position upon this only partly hospitable globe. We must make new energies and hardihoods continue the manliness to which the military mind so faithfully clings. Martial virtues must be the enduring cement; intrepidity, contempt of softness, surrender of private interest, obedience to command, must still remain the rock upon which states are built — unless, indeed, we wish for dangerous reactions against commonwealths, fit only for contempt, and liable to invite attack whenever a centre of crystallization for military-minded enterprise gets formed anywhere in their neighborhood.”

It’s not exactly off-topic here to post even older American wisdom in the background of last night’s conversation.

“Of all the enemies of true liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.” from James Madison’s “Political Observations,” 1975.

This was to be the Fourth President of the United States, uncannily anticipating where the Forty-third would deliver us, by way of Iraq.

Madison continues:

War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.

In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people.

The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manner and of morals, engendered in both.

No nation can preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

War is in fact the true nurse of executive aggrandizement. In war, a physical force is to be created; and it is the executive will, which is to direct it.

In war, the public treasuries are to be unlocked; and it is the executive hand which is to dispense them.

In war, the honors and emoluments of office are to be multiplied; and it is the executive patronage under which they are to be enjoyed; and it is the executive brow they are to encircle.

The strongest passions and most dangerous weaknesses of the human breast; ambition, avarice, vanity, the honorable or venal love of fame, are all in conspiracy against the desire and duty of peace.James Madison, “Political Observations”, April 20, 1795, in Letters and Other Writings of James Madison, Volume IV, page 491.

btw, peggysue, I love that Dylan song, “Gotta serve somebody!”

Yes there has been a backlash, but I would contend that it has translated to 2 steps back, from the 3 steps forward we took with the help of people like you. We have survived the Bush/Reagan era (almost) ahead of the gamae, and we are about to take some more steps forward, I’m sure of it!

Keep posting Kate!

Thank you Godzilla for you bite, though the name play could have be omitted.

You said it Mediabloodhound. There are many ways to serve. Don’t many already do enough shadow work for the owners of capital?

Peggysue, thanks for the Dylan. In those few lines he said it all almost.

You’re right Katemcshane. This was one of ROS’s rare bombs. Chris likes to treat his guests well, which I respect, but there needed to be someone to at least seriously question the premise that supporting imperialism is service to the higher ideals of the US.

Seth Moulton said that Bush hasn’t asked the country to GIVE anything for this war — to IMPART anything of themselves, I suppose he meant. WHO ARE YOU? WHERE DO YOU LIVE? The costs of this invasion to the average person in this country are unimaginably and catastrophically destructive. When I hear a comment like that, it is so overwhelming that I have to walk away just so I don’t do something I would regret. These are the same people who don’t want to hear about what really happens to human beings when money is cut from the relatively few service programs that remain. If you mention actual examples, you’re being “too negative”. Frank Schaeffer woke up to the class divide and I’m so happy for him, but the idea that the Marines are the answer is more than ludicrous. I’m sure his son is a decent man, as friends of mine who went to VietNam are decent men, but my friends live with devastating effects of that war that will never end, and their children have lived with those effects. Not to mention the effects of all this SERVICE on the people in Iraq.

In this country, if money went into service to the people, it would be another country.

This show reminded me of 2 Dylan songs. First, his masterpiece, Masters of War.
and then regarding service,

You Have to Serve Somebody.

Bob Dylan

Service like what? Maybe ANY service that a young person thinks may work for them?.. while they work for others? Could be… and if it were my place to serve as distributor of the public dime, why, there’s probably some scheduled investment in weapons refinement that could be put to use training and feeding & housing some of crystallee’s peers to good purpose… or maybe an aircraft carrier that we could do without, to get more young minds engaged in simpler (& more generally helpful) things than are usually produced by having another aircraft carrier… or Argus-class cruiser… or ^..^

Our plight is that of the wallflower at the prom; it’s not that she doesn’t want to dance, she just hasn’t been asked right.

Consider my state. At 23, I’ve spent four years and $60,000 developing my skill as a Jazz musician, and now must decide whether it’s better to throw away all that work and get a full-time job, or tack on another $10,000 in debt, on the chance that a Master’s degree might lead to a slightly-less soul-crushing career track. As for my friends, most have either moved back in with their parents, or scouring the classifieds for any job with health insurance. All of them complain about having nothing to do. Cities like New Orleans remain in ruins, yet hours that could be spent rebuilding them go to such life-affirming causes as YouTube, Myspace, and WoW.

Can it really be reasonable to expect someone to enter their adult life bearing the debt of someone twice their age? Is it wrong to offer someone a chance at financial freedom if they devote two years to rebuilding and reviving their country?

No, we’d never do something like this:

The Army’s Loan Repayment Program (LRP) is a special enlistment incentive that the Army offers to highly qualified applicants at the time of enlistment. Under the LRP, the Army will repay up to $65,000 of a soldier’s qualifying student loans.

Well, not unless you’re willing to get shot.

There are many, many ways to “serve your country” without putting on a uniform and agreeing to kill other people. NOT agreeing to kill people, especially in an illegal war such as Iraq, is but one example of how one could presently serve his country. Protesting against this pointless war of choice is another way one can serve his country.

I happened to choose to do some of those things, as well as to point out irresponsible journalism, under- or unreported news and administration lies, and consider this as much serving my country as your guest’s service as a Marine. I’d go a step further and say that though it may take bravery to put oneself directly in harm’s way in battle, bravery does not necessarily mean you’re always doing the right thing.

History is strewn with the dead bodies of brave soldiers who died for both just causes and unjust causes.

Doing the right thing when people are looking and when they’re not, speaking truth to power when it’s not popular and continuing to do so when it is, concern for how war actually impacts the lives of innocents as well as the soldiers…is an act of bravery, serving one’s country and doing the right thing.

With all due respect, the college-student-turned soldier on your show tonight, with the exception of his dismay over Bush’s unwillingness to ask for sacrifice, sounded like he was reading a script from the latest military commercial. If he had no or little leadership skills before entering the Marines, then I’m glad that he at least was able to take that away from his experience. But to suggest, which he did and no one called him on it, that military service is the primary facilitator of leadership skills is patently ludicrous, misleading and, quite frankly, a dangerous received notion repeated endlessly by our leaders and members of the media establishment.

As you well know, leadership can be learned from parents, teachers, friends, religious leaders, mentors, public figures, sports, the arts, music…so many people and so many avenues…which can then be applied to scores of jobs and civic duties that all contribute to making this country a better place while also enriching the individuals pursuing these actions.

Moreover, your guest the Marine spoke glowingly and with tunnel-visioned certitude that anyone who joins the military will be better off for it? Tell that to the over 3,000 dead American men and women and over 50,000 wounded. Tell that to each one of their families that their deaths or shattered bodies has touched. Tell that to the young man who has one limb left and he’s only 18 years old. Or the young woman with permanent brain damage because of a roadside bomb. Tell that to the guy with PTSD who keeps seeing in recurring nightmares the skull of a dead Iraqi boy that he accidentally stepped on before knowing what it was (true story). In fact, tell it to the well-documented one in six soldiers who return from this war with PTSD.

Your guest the Marine speaks of war as if it were a training ground, or some G.I. Joe college course, in which to learn leadership skills. How much more dislocated from the plight of other human beings suffering can one be? How much more solipsistic than to predominantly see his service, in this war that has also killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, as a crash course on leadership skills.

It is a sad commentary on the state of our evolution as humans that killing in a war is still being presented as the primary method of attaining such skills. And, again, with all due respect, I think you do your audience a great disservice – especially some young American this might convince to join and fight in this war – to have allowed these comments to stand alone and not be addressed.

Respectfully yours,
MediaBloodhound

http://www.mediabloodhound.com