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	<title>Comments on: Ex-Gay Ministries</title>
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	<description>Christopher Lydon in conversation on arts, ideas and politics</description>
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		<title>By: Raymond</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65350</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2005 02:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65350</guid>
		<description>deadantstomp: here is a very preliminary analysis of the revenue received by Focus on the Family for activities relating to homosexuality. I hope that it is helpful.



Disclosure: I am a long-time supporter of Focus on the Family.



Focus on the Family (FOTF) publishes their financial statements on their website www.family.org.  In 2004, FOTF received $135M in contributions, $4.62M in sales revenue, and $713k in event revenue.



Note that contributors often receive a book or audio tape to accompany a contribution. I can personally attest that the value of this book or tape NEVER exceeds the value of the contribution ... I mean, come on, how could it? Anyway ...



FOTF recently conducted an event in Boston: Love One Out. This event addressed homosexuality. So, let us assume that ALL of the event revenue relates to homosexuality. And for good measure, let us assume that ALL of sales revenue relates to homosexuality. So, $5.33M (= 4.62 + 0.713) of $140M (= 135 + 4.62 + 0.713), or 3.8% (= 100 x 5.33 / 140) of revenue relates to homosexuality.



So the revenue reasonably assigned to activites related to homosexuality is small relative to total revenue.



OK, so what about absolute numbers?



Well, assume the average income of a FOTF employee is $50k per year. This may be high, but it is a good round number. It is commonly assumed that the employer carries a cost of about twice (or bit less) of the employee&#039;s salary for each employee. So, $5.33M supports about 53 ($5.3M / $100k) employees undertaking activities related to homosexuality.



So the number of employees devoted to tasks related to homosexuality is about the same as, say, those employed by your local WalMart. I mean, just one store.



Another disclosure: I make many mistakes. Though, I hope I did not make any arithmetic mistakes above.



So, by all means, challenge my assumptions. But as far as I can tell, there is very little money on the line, at least as far as FOTF is concerned, from activities related to homosexuality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>deadantstomp: here is a very preliminary analysis of the revenue received by Focus on the Family for activities relating to homosexuality. I hope that it is helpful.</p>
<p>Disclosure: I am a long-time supporter of Focus on the Family.</p>
<p>Focus on the Family (FOTF) publishes their financial statements on their website <a  href="http://www.family.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.family.org</a>.  In 2004, FOTF received $135M in contributions, $4.62M in sales revenue, and $713k in event revenue.</p>
<p>Note that contributors often receive a book or audio tape to accompany a contribution. I can personally attest that the value of this book or tape NEVER exceeds the value of the contribution &#8230; I mean, come on, how could it? Anyway &#8230;</p>
<p>FOTF recently conducted an event in Boston: Love One Out. This event addressed homosexuality. So, let us assume that ALL of the event revenue relates to homosexuality. And for good measure, let us assume that ALL of sales revenue relates to homosexuality. So, $5.33M (= 4.62 + 0.713) of $140M (= 135 + 4.62 + 0.713), or 3.8% (= 100 x 5.33 / 140) of revenue relates to homosexuality.</p>
<p>So the revenue reasonably assigned to activites related to homosexuality is small relative to total revenue.</p>
<p>OK, so what about absolute numbers?</p>
<p>Well, assume the average income of a FOTF employee is $50k per year. This may be high, but it is a good round number. It is commonly assumed that the employer carries a cost of about twice (or bit less) of the employee&#8217;s salary for each employee. So, $5.33M supports about 53 ($5.3M / $100k) employees undertaking activities related to homosexuality.</p>
<p>So the number of employees devoted to tasks related to homosexuality is about the same as, say, those employed by your local WalMart. I mean, just one store.</p>
<p>Another disclosure: I make many mistakes. Though, I hope I did not make any arithmetic mistakes above.</p>
<p>So, by all means, challenge my assumptions. But as far as I can tell, there is very little money on the line, at least as far as FOTF is concerned, from activities related to homosexuality.</p>
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		<title>By: jbracken</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65349</link>
		<dc:creator>jbracken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65349</guid>
		<description>The aforementioned Tanya Erzen, of OSU, has a new book coming out on the topic.

Straight to Jesus : Sexual and Christian Conversions in the Ex-Gay Movement

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520245814/103-8152393-2908614?v=glance&amp;n=283155&amp;n=507846&amp;s=books&amp;v=glance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The aforementioned Tanya Erzen, of OSU, has a new book coming out on the topic.</p>
<p>Straight to Jesus : Sexual and Christian Conversions in the Ex-Gay Movement</p>
<p><a  href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520245814/103-8152393-2908614?v=glance&#038;n=283155&#038;n=507846&#038;s=books&#038;v=glance" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520245814/103-8152393-2908614?v=glance&#038;n=283155&#038;n=507846&#038;s=books&#038;v=glance</a></p>
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		<title>By: deadantstomp</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65348</link>
		<dc:creator>deadantstomp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2005 22:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65348</guid>
		<description>&quot;To those saying that the ex-gay movement is a â€œhugeâ€? money making machine I would suggest: quantify and provide context. What is the revenue? How does this compare to the revenue of, say, the various addiction programs mentioned by brookes.&quot;



I would love to see the numbers on what focus on the family makes off of its ex-ministries.



Coming from a fairly religious, although pretty politically progressive, Southern family with members who have listened to/read james dobson&#039;s stuff for years, when I came out, my sister signed herself, her husband, and my mother up for one of their &quot;answers in genesis&quot; conventions and invited me to come along.  After some fairly fiery emails and phone calls making my feelings about the group extremely clear, I agreed to go in chaperone capacity and as a fact finding mission.



Inside the church, everything had a dollar sign on it.



It cost $60 dollars per person to attend.  This did not include lunch, which was sold seperately.  The were a very few handouts and every presentation included a or multiple sales pitches for complementary  literature and reminders that audio or video copies of sessions were available for purchase.  The foyer and side halls of the church were filled with stuff for sale.  Everyone on the circuit seemed to have a book they were hawking and there were multiple cash registers set up around the church to make purchase of materials easy.  Visions of Jesus and the money changers in the temple flashed through my head as I watched the registers ca-ching as the suburban parents who had frog marched their cringing teenaged kids there ring up their take home literature.



Shortly prior to this when my mother had first been told that I was gay, I had found the invoice from her purchase of about 6 or so books from focus on the family&#039;s online store about ex-gay stuff.



I often listened to american family radio and focus on the family on long road trips.  I&#039;d get angry and find it easier to stay awake and also felt it was probably a good idea to actually have a listen to the people who my mother and sister got so much of their worldview from.  If you ever hear them mention they are going to do a fund drive, get ready for hearing about homosexuality.  The subject seems to be like &quot;The Power of Myth&quot; for PBS.  On one trip I heard them mention that they were short of their goals and were going to do a fund raiser.  I was talking to my mom and pointed out that they often use gut wrench bigotry against gay people to fund raise.  She said I was being silly and that they don&#039;t talk about it all that often on the shows.  I heard three hourlong shows devoted to the subject that day.



I don&#039;t have explicit inside information on how ex-gay stuff is used as a money maker beyond the anecdotal evidence I&#039;ve shared here, but I would be interested to dig deeper and hear other folks opinions.  I think that they are successful as money makers when they aren&#039;t too stand-alone.  I imagine that ex-gay things marketed mostly at dissatisfied homosexuals or at actually converting folks probably struggle and are destined to have finacial and legal troubles, but as a part of a larger ministry and catering to folks who have a peripheral relationship with the subject, like my mother and sister, do quite well.  And as a hot button subject to drum up bigot dollars by constantly bringing up the subject and then saying &quot;Don&#039;t you wish those gays would quit throwing all this stuff in your face?  We do too; give us money to fight &#039;em.&quot;



I haven&#039;t seen a decent analysis of the money side of the equation, but if you ever delve into one of the events, the finacial factor is blatant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;To those saying that the ex-gay movement is a â€œhugeâ€? money making machine I would suggest: quantify and provide context. What is the revenue? How does this compare to the revenue of, say, the various addiction programs mentioned by brookes.&#8221;</p>
<p>I would love to see the numbers on what focus on the family makes off of its ex-ministries.</p>
<p>Coming from a fairly religious, although pretty politically progressive, Southern family with members who have listened to/read james dobson&#8217;s stuff for years, when I came out, my sister signed herself, her husband, and my mother up for one of their &#8220;answers in genesis&#8221; conventions and invited me to come along.  After some fairly fiery emails and phone calls making my feelings about the group extremely clear, I agreed to go in chaperone capacity and as a fact finding mission.</p>
<p>Inside the church, everything had a dollar sign on it.</p>
<p>It cost $60 dollars per person to attend.  This did not include lunch, which was sold seperately.  The were a very few handouts and every presentation included a or multiple sales pitches for complementary  literature and reminders that audio or video copies of sessions were available for purchase.  The foyer and side halls of the church were filled with stuff for sale.  Everyone on the circuit seemed to have a book they were hawking and there were multiple cash registers set up around the church to make purchase of materials easy.  Visions of Jesus and the money changers in the temple flashed through my head as I watched the registers ca-ching as the suburban parents who had frog marched their cringing teenaged kids there ring up their take home literature.</p>
<p>Shortly prior to this when my mother had first been told that I was gay, I had found the invoice from her purchase of about 6 or so books from focus on the family&#8217;s online store about ex-gay stuff.</p>
<p>I often listened to american family radio and focus on the family on long road trips.  I&#8217;d get angry and find it easier to stay awake and also felt it was probably a good idea to actually have a listen to the people who my mother and sister got so much of their worldview from.  If you ever hear them mention they are going to do a fund drive, get ready for hearing about homosexuality.  The subject seems to be like &#8220;The Power of Myth&#8221; for PBS.  On one trip I heard them mention that they were short of their goals and were going to do a fund raiser.  I was talking to my mom and pointed out that they often use gut wrench bigotry against gay people to fund raise.  She said I was being silly and that they don&#8217;t talk about it all that often on the shows.  I heard three hourlong shows devoted to the subject that day.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have explicit inside information on how ex-gay stuff is used as a money maker beyond the anecdotal evidence I&#8217;ve shared here, but I would be interested to dig deeper and hear other folks opinions.  I think that they are successful as money makers when they aren&#8217;t too stand-alone.  I imagine that ex-gay things marketed mostly at dissatisfied homosexuals or at actually converting folks probably struggle and are destined to have finacial and legal troubles, but as a part of a larger ministry and catering to folks who have a peripheral relationship with the subject, like my mother and sister, do quite well.  And as a hot button subject to drum up bigot dollars by constantly bringing up the subject and then saying &#8220;Don&#8217;t you wish those gays would quit throwing all this stuff in your face?  We do too; give us money to fight &#8216;em.&#8221;</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t seen a decent analysis of the money side of the equation, but if you ever delve into one of the events, the finacial factor is blatant.</p>
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		<title>By: ZenDog</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65347</link>
		<dc:creator>ZenDog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 04:38:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65347</guid>
		<description>I would really enjoy listening to a show on this topic.  I know a couple of people who have been involved with an organization called &quot;Evergreen&quot; which is a Mormon-affiliated &quot;Ex-gay&quot; group.  Recently a community college in Utah hosted a forum by this group and advertised it with flyers that read:  &quot;Silencing the Gay Voice:  The Plight of Ex-Gays in American Society.&quot; . . . .or something to that effect.  It created quite a stir on campus.



I agree with Raymond&#039;s posts in that it would be interesting to see the debate framed in a different way than the typical Gay Determinism Vs. Christian-Anti-Gay stance, if that is possible.



Because of the inflamed rhetoric on both sides, it&#039;s not possible to discuss the variability of sexuality.  The fact is that sexuality is not easily confined to rigid categories labeled &#039;gay&#039; and &#039;straight.&#039;



Although I only have anecdotal evidence, it is my belief that some people are able to alter their sexual orientation.  But here&#039;s the kicker:  It&#039;s not those in the Ex-Gay Ministries that are able to do so.  Rather, it is those who, in a sense, move beyond the black and white mentality of gay/ex-gay.  And they are able to do this only because of complete and radical self-acceptance.  In other words, they aren&#039;t seeking to *escape* their homosexual attractions.  Rather, they integrate and transcend.



Ex-gay groups, in my view, are based on a false premise that homosexuality is a spiritual illness, and from what I have witnessed, cause adherents to get caught in a never-ending cycle of psychological torment, always trying to escape or overcome some part of themselves that they have been encouraged to view as &#039;bad&#039; or &#039;broken.&#039;



But another less obvious consequence of evangelical rhetoric is that it keeps pro-Gay groups locked into a defensive strategy that says &quot;It&#039;s Genetic, hard-wired, end-of-story.&quot;  And who can blame them?  As long as the evangelicals frame the issue in terms of sin and spiritual unworthiness, they will be dealing with people who have done their &#039;inner work,&#039; and aren&#039;t going to play that game.



Ultimately I hope that we get to a place where we are humble enough to recognize how little we really still know about sexuality, and are therefore compelled to act with more openness and understanding, accepting those who are gay, and helping those who are uncomfortable with their sexuality in ways that are respectful and helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would really enjoy listening to a show on this topic.  I know a couple of people who have been involved with an organization called &#8220;Evergreen&#8221; which is a Mormon-affiliated &#8220;Ex-gay&#8221; group.  Recently a community college in Utah hosted a forum by this group and advertised it with flyers that read:  &#8220;Silencing the Gay Voice:  The Plight of Ex-Gays in American Society.&#8221; . . . .or something to that effect.  It created quite a stir on campus.</p>
<p>I agree with Raymond&#8217;s posts in that it would be interesting to see the debate framed in a different way than the typical Gay Determinism Vs. Christian-Anti-Gay stance, if that is possible.</p>
<p>Because of the inflamed rhetoric on both sides, it&#8217;s not possible to discuss the variability of sexuality.  The fact is that sexuality is not easily confined to rigid categories labeled &#8216;gay&#8217; and &#8216;straight.&#8217;</p>
<p>Although I only have anecdotal evidence, it is my belief that some people are able to alter their sexual orientation.  But here&#8217;s the kicker:  It&#8217;s not those in the Ex-Gay Ministries that are able to do so.  Rather, it is those who, in a sense, move beyond the black and white mentality of gay/ex-gay.  And they are able to do this only because of complete and radical self-acceptance.  In other words, they aren&#8217;t seeking to *escape* their homosexual attractions.  Rather, they integrate and transcend.</p>
<p>Ex-gay groups, in my view, are based on a false premise that homosexuality is a spiritual illness, and from what I have witnessed, cause adherents to get caught in a never-ending cycle of psychological torment, always trying to escape or overcome some part of themselves that they have been encouraged to view as &#8216;bad&#8217; or &#8216;broken.&#8217;</p>
<p>But another less obvious consequence of evangelical rhetoric is that it keeps pro-Gay groups locked into a defensive strategy that says &#8220;It&#8217;s Genetic, hard-wired, end-of-story.&#8221;  And who can blame them?  As long as the evangelicals frame the issue in terms of sin and spiritual unworthiness, they will be dealing with people who have done their &#8216;inner work,&#8217; and aren&#8217;t going to play that game.</p>
<p>Ultimately I hope that we get to a place where we are humble enough to recognize how little we really still know about sexuality, and are therefore compelled to act with more openness and understanding, accepting those who are gay, and helping those who are uncomfortable with their sexuality in ways that are respectful and helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65346</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65346</guid>
		<description>One thing that may be of interest (if you haven&#039;t seen it already) is a documentary the BBC ran - &#039;Sad to be Gay&#039;.  This was about a gay man in the UK who decided he did not like being gay, and (though not religious) tried attending one of the ex-gay ministries in the US in the hope of being &#039;converted&#039; - see http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/03_march/16/2spring_progs.shtml for info, or google it and there will be loads of info.  It was a relatively subtle (and personal) account of these ministries...



Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that may be of interest (if you haven&#8217;t seen it already) is a documentary the BBC ran &#8211; &#8216;Sad to be Gay&#8217;.  This was about a gay man in the UK who decided he did not like being gay, and (though not religious) tried attending one of the ex-gay ministries in the US in the hope of being &#8216;converted&#8217; &#8211; see <a  href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/03_march/16/2spring_progs.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/03_march/16/2spring_progs.shtml</a> for info, or google it and there will be loads of info.  It was a relatively subtle (and personal) account of these ministries&#8230;</p>
<p>Jon</p>
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		<title>By: diogenes</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65345</link>
		<dc:creator>diogenes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65345</guid>
		<description>Raymond:  Reasonable expectation regarding behaviors motivated by homosexual desire should be exactly the same as the expectations regarding heterosexual behaviors.  e.g refusal to do harm to self or other, fidelity to a committed other, etc.



I do not accept any validity to the evangelical side of the issue.  Their &quot;truth&quot; is not based on reason but on their faith.  They consider the Bible to be sacred writ.  I consider it a mish-mash of ancient and irrelevant religious lore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raymond:  Reasonable expectation regarding behaviors motivated by homosexual desire should be exactly the same as the expectations regarding heterosexual behaviors.  e.g refusal to do harm to self or other, fidelity to a committed other, etc.</p>
<p>I do not accept any validity to the evangelical side of the issue.  Their &#8220;truth&#8221; is not based on reason but on their faith.  They consider the Bible to be sacred writ.  I consider it a mish-mash of ancient and irrelevant religious lore.</p>
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		<title>By: rubenporras</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65344</link>
		<dc:creator>rubenporras</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Oct 2005 01:03:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65344</guid>
		<description>I just did a google search and learned that you used a photo of mine for this site.  Thank you.  I am glad that you liked it and that it came in handy!



One more thing...can you please fix the link on the photo credit and point it to my blog at: http://www.eachdaycounts.com.  That would be great!



Take care!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just did a google search and learned that you used a photo of mine for this site.  Thank you.  I am glad that you liked it and that it came in handy!</p>
<p>One more thing&#8230;can you please fix the link on the photo credit and point it to my blog at: <a  href="http://www.eachdaycounts.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.eachdaycounts.com</a>.  That would be great!</p>
<p>Take care!</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65343</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 03:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65343</guid>
		<description>Perhaps that in 37 years many still do not recognize the truths revealed in a Playboy essay written by a man quoted as saying &quot;There is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise.&quot; and &quot;I never miss a chance to have sex or appear on television.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps that in 37 years many still do not recognize the truths revealed in a Playboy essay written by a man quoted as saying &#8220;There is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise.&#8221; and &#8220;I never miss a chance to have sex or appear on television.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Chelsea</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65342</link>
		<dc:creator>Chelsea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65342</guid>
		<description>This Gore Vidal essay, which was written in 1968, still  resonates with today&#039;s socio/political climate. What does that say about progress?



http://www.isebrand.com/Gore_Vidal_Sex_1975.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This Gore Vidal essay, which was written in 1968, still  resonates with today&#8217;s socio/political climate. What does that say about progress?</p>
<p><a  href="http://www.isebrand.com/Gore_Vidal_Sex_1975.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.isebrand.com/Gore_Vidal_Sex_1975.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Raymond</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65341</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/ex-gay-ministries-2/#comment-65341</guid>
		<description>Chelsea, it is exactly that I do not want &quot;sides&quot; represented at all ... I want differing views to interact and in the process lead to new, probably unexpected to all, insight.



To those saying that the ex-gay movement is a &quot;huge&quot; money making machine I would suggest: quantify and provide context. What is the revenue? How does this compare to the revenue of, say, the various addiction programs mentioned by brookes.



To those realizing that &quot;conversion is futile&quot; I would ask: How do they know this? And why do they think conversion from &quot;being&quot; homosexual, rather than a decision to stop &quot;behaving&quot; homosexual, is even pertinent? And is human sexual desire even simply and immutably hetero- or homo-sexual?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chelsea, it is exactly that I do not want &#8220;sides&#8221; represented at all &#8230; I want differing views to interact and in the process lead to new, probably unexpected to all, insight.</p>
<p>To those saying that the ex-gay movement is a &#8220;huge&#8221; money making machine I would suggest: quantify and provide context. What is the revenue? How does this compare to the revenue of, say, the various addiction programs mentioned by brookes.</p>
<p>To those realizing that &#8220;conversion is futile&#8221; I would ask: How do they know this? And why do they think conversion from &#8220;being&#8221; homosexual, rather than a decision to stop &#8220;behaving&#8221; homosexual, is even pertinent? And is human sexual desire even simply and immutably hetero- or homo-sexual?</p>
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