Comments on: George Bush in Jerusalem: Not Too Late for a Legacy http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/ Christopher Lydon in conversation on arts, ideas and politics Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:09:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: enhabit http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/#comment-92312 enhabit Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:48:58 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=1215#comment-92312 at the end of the day. the israelis are going to have to give up the settlements. i honestly believe that the other issues will begin to settle when they do. at the end of the day. the israelis are going to have to give up the settlements. i honestly believe that the other issues will begin to settle when they do.

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/#comment-92311 Potter Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:48:55 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=1215#comment-92311 A more articulate person than Henry Siegman on this subject I cannot find: <a href="http://www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/Post_Annapolis_Pitfalls.html" rel="nofollow">Post Annapolis Pitfalls</a> A more articulate person than Henry Siegman on this subject I cannot find:

Post Annapolis Pitfalls

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/#comment-92310 Potter Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:23:43 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=1215#comment-92310 Zeke- I don't think it was meant to be patronizing. I do note that you have your antennae up for that sort of thing which is good but we must be careful- both sides and all around- about interpretations of what is said. I find that misinterpretations abound (not you Zeke) in the arguments. What disturbs me is lack of good will and accusations that surface so quickly from one side to the other. One can mean very well and yet it gets twisted. But as to your point there is really a big imbalance between the sides- not as to ability. One side has lost much of it's intellectual capital to a diaspora. The young have little future and are tempted to pick up a gun and fight. The other side has managed, flourished, included universal military service as a civic duty. Law and order and civic institutions make a huge difference in the ability to retain those who need some peace and quiet and order, not to mention incentive, to do their work. Universities have suffered on the one side, not on the other. So, again, Israel has what to give- and Palestinians will need. It will advantage Israel, not merely materially but strategically and not merely those in my opinion- but morally to help Palestinians. But I may be, in that last suggestion,taking the Avishai quote a bit further than he meant it. Zeke- I don’t think it was meant to be patronizing. I do note that you have your antennae up for that sort of thing which is good but we must be careful- both sides and all around- about interpretations of what is said. I find that misinterpretations abound (not you Zeke) in the arguments. What disturbs me is lack of good will and accusations that surface so quickly from one side to the other. One can mean very well and yet it gets twisted.

But as to your point there is really a big imbalance between the sides- not as to ability. One side has lost much of it’s intellectual capital to a diaspora. The young have little future and are tempted to pick up a gun and fight. The other side has managed, flourished, included universal military service as a civic duty. Law and order and civic institutions make a huge difference in the ability to retain those who need some peace and quiet and order, not to mention incentive, to do their work. Universities have suffered on the one side, not on the other. So, again, Israel has what to give- and Palestinians will need. It will advantage Israel, not merely materially but strategically and not merely those in my opinion- but morally to help Palestinians. But I may be, in that last suggestion,taking the Avishai quote a bit further than he meant it.

]]> By: Zeke http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/#comment-92309 Zeke Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:45:25 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=1215#comment-92309 Potter--Of course, I think both sides would benefit from peace. I guess the part that confused me was the implication that only the Israelis posesss intellectual capital. Perhaps this is true--if so, at least in part another result of the occupation's destruction of Palestinian civic institutions. It just sounded kind of patronizing to me. Potter–Of course, I think both sides would benefit from peace. I guess the part that confused me was the implication that only the Israelis posesss intellectual capital. Perhaps this is true–if so, at least in part another result of the occupation’s destruction of Palestinian civic institutions. It just sounded kind of patronizing to me.

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/#comment-92308 Potter Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:48:49 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=1215#comment-92308 Sorry- that should read: "Regarding your quote from Avishai it seems self-evident that should both sides snap out of their current modes and make a deal and peace breaks out- that Palestinians and Israelis would benefit mutually." Sorry- that should read:

“Regarding your quote from Avishai it seems self-evident that should both sides snap out of their current modes and make a deal and peace breaks out- that Palestinians and Israelis would benefit mutually.”

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/#comment-92307 Potter Sun, 20 Jan 2008 13:46:48 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=1215#comment-92307 Zeke- thanks for sending me back to Avishai's blog. In an answer to one of the comments Avishai sends us to a recent poll of Palestinians. What stands out is their lack of belief in this Annapolis process or that there will be a settlement in the next five years let alone this year. They know there are weak leaders all around. Regarding your quote from Avishai is seems self-evident that should both sides nap out of their current modes and make a deal and peace breaks out- that Palestinians and Israelis would benefit mutually. This is a heartbreaker because it means a 180 degree turnaround in the way this has been dealt with- both sides. There are those who believe as Siennaf1 above...a good example of a mindset on both sides. Zeke- thanks for sending me back to Avishai’s blog. In an answer to one of the comments Avishai sends us to a recent poll of Palestinians. What stands out is their lack of belief in this Annapolis process or that there will be a settlement in the next five years let alone this year.

They know there are weak leaders all around.

Regarding your quote from Avishai is seems self-evident that should both sides nap out of their current modes and make a deal and peace breaks out- that Palestinians and Israelis would benefit mutually. This is a heartbreaker because it means a 180 degree turnaround in the way this has been dealt with- both sides.

There are those who believe as Siennaf1 above…a good example of a mindset on both sides.

]]> By: Zeke http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/#comment-92306 Zeke Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:12:01 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=1215#comment-92306 This show turned me on to Bernard Avishai and I've been reading his blog. Eyeless in Gaza is a smart piece on the folly of the War on Terror-Israeli style. However, he makes a statement that I don't really understand. <i>Just about any configuration of “the deal” will work to Israel’s advantage, moreover, since Israel’s intellectual capital will, over the coming generation, become indispensable for Palestinian youth, as they move to “governance, provision of essential services, and stimulation of economic development,” and away from the consolations of the gang.</i> It's not that I disagree, I just don't really understand what he envisions happening in this sentence. This show turned me on to Bernard Avishai and I’ve been reading his blog. Eyeless in Gaza is a smart piece on the folly of the War on Terror-Israeli style. However, he makes a statement that I don’t really understand.

Just about any configuration of “the deal” will work to Israel’s advantage, moreover, since Israel’s intellectual capital will, over the coming generation, become indispensable for Palestinian youth, as they move to “governance, provision of essential services, and stimulation of economic development,” and away from the consolations of the gang.

It’s not that I disagree, I just don’t really understand what he envisions happening in this sentence.

]]> By: siennaf1 http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/#comment-92305 siennaf1 Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:08:43 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=1215#comment-92305 The problem is that no Palestinian believes in the right of Israel to exist. Some will say they do, and some will agree to compromise for a while, but in their heart of hearts none of them believe in Israel's right to exist. The "moderates" will compromise until they are strong enough to overthrow Israel, and the "extremist" won't compromise and will continue to fight, but for both the end result is the same, it is just the means to achieve it that's different. The problem is that no Palestinian believes in the right of Israel to exist. Some will say they do, and some will agree to compromise for a while, but in their heart of hearts none of them believe in Israel’s right to exist.

The “moderates” will compromise until they are strong enough to overthrow Israel, and the “extremist” won’t compromise and will continue to fight, but for both the end result is the same, it is just the means to achieve it that’s different.

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/#comment-92304 Potter Sat, 19 Jan 2008 00:07:48 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=1215#comment-92304 Hi Zeke- I feel like a spider spinning a web in a corner here. (Don't analyse it!) Benvenisti- who does not appear often these days- except when he is incensed enough- had this one on today's Haaretz: <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/945874.html" rel="nofollow">The March of Cynics</a> quoting Benvenisti from that: "Swiss cheese isn't going to work when it comes to the outline of a state. And I mean that," declared Bush. Right after that he said the drawing up of the future border will reflect the current reality. But it is the reality of the settlement blocs that has created the "Swiss cheese." Duh. Hi Zeke- I feel like a spider spinning a web in a corner here. (Don’t analyse it!)

Benvenisti- who does not appear often these days- except when he is incensed enough- had this one on today’s Haaretz:

The March of Cynics

quoting Benvenisti from that:

“Swiss cheese isn’t going to work when it comes to the outline of a state. And I mean that,” declared Bush. Right after that he said the drawing up of the future border will reflect the current reality. But it is the reality of the settlement blocs that has created the “Swiss cheese.”

Duh.

]]> By: Zeke http://www.radioopensource.org/george-bush-in-jerusalem-not-too-late-for-a-legacy/#comment-92303 Zeke Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:56:11 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=1215#comment-92303 Potter: Thanks for reminding me that I want to keep up with columns by Amira Hass. I found a link that archives her columns dating back to 1999. The most recent is dated January 16 of this year, so it seems to be kept current. It is a bit clunky but a few clicks brings you to Haaretz. http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/customSearch.php?sMask=ynnnnn&wMask=yyy&lv=1s1&d0=1&d1=n&w5=amira+hass&o1=n (I apologize. I don't know how to create tiny url links) Interestingly, that most recent column will be of interest to ROS regulars. It is titled, "Honorary Citizenship of the Moon." It takes the "honor" awarded to Daniel Barenboim as a starting point for examining the false asumption that somehow the Palestinian territories are already some sort of proto-state instead of what they really are. The column is at:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=945076 Potter: Thanks for reminding me that I want to keep up with columns by Amira Hass. I found a link that archives her columns dating back to 1999. The most recent is dated January 16 of this year, so it seems to be kept current. It is a bit clunky but a few clicks brings you to Haaretz.

http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/customSearch.php?sMask=ynnnnn&wMask=yyy&lv=1s1&d0=1&d1=n&w5=amira+hass&o1=n

(I apologize. I don’t know how to create tiny url links)

Interestingly, that most recent column will be of interest to ROS regulars. It is titled, “Honorary Citizenship of the Moon.” It takes the “honor” awarded to Daniel Barenboim as a starting point for examining the false asumption that somehow the Palestinian territories are already some sort of proto-state instead of what they really are.

The column is at:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=945076

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