I don’t know if anyone is still following this thread, but I find it a nice mix of looking at an ideal while trying to find ways to take action in the current reality.Tyring to define a cultural ethos that includes more than the might dollar, while trying to uproot the invasive weeds in our tribal garden.

Nikos – I’m sorry to hear that you are skeptical of fundamentalists. I know many people with very strong ‘fundamentalist’ beliefs. Usually, we can find some ground upon which can agree that those in less fortunate circumstances need to be aided by those more fortunate. And usually we can agree to make room for people of different religious views. I find it s possible to appeal to some of the higher sensibilities of their spirituality and get them to let go of their evangelism. Or to at least separate their call to evangelize at a personal level while tolerating at a societal level. I get there by not expecting them to change their beliefs while not allowing them to assume that their beliefs can claim dominion over the hearts and souls of others. I maintain a fair amount of cautiousness in my expectations of others while maintaining a hope that I can work with even those whose perspectives are as far from mine as possible.

As for the question of the intellectually honest atheist, you’re getting at a fundamental question about the nature of humanity. It seems that no matter how much we’ve been misled by people supposedly guided by their God, we still want someone who believes in a higher power. Atheism is uninspiring. Its as though we can’t see the purpose doing anything that isn’t immediately self-serving without the concept of a higher power. Or perhaps its more about the concept of an eternal existence. If we are currently living in one incarnation of our souls, we might have to face the very long-term ramifications of our actions and so, we are motivated to be a bit more careful. But if this is it. 80 or so years and we’re done, why care about others or what comes after us?

nother, you say: “To me the irony is that those of us who are in this pre-existing tribe and who are grasping onto to old identities, are living just fine in the multi-cultural reality outside our door. We work with and interact with other cultures all day, but then we go home and watch TV and listen to talk radio spew fear and before you know it, our rhetoric is out of tune with our reality.”

I think this irony varies from person to person and geographically. There are plenty of people out there who harbor in their daily hearts fear and hatred of those considered ‘others’. Racism is alive and well. Misogyny is alive and well. I’ve heard caucasion men complain about their jobs being taken by minorities. I watch the CVS manager eye the black shopper more suspiciously than the white one. But it is true that these issues are usually resolved on the personal level. You can’t legislate love and eradicate fear with tax breaks. But leaders can impact the cultural ethos and legislate some things to address damaging behaviors. Once a culture is permeated from the top down with principles of tolerance it becomes more possible for neighbors to help each other transform their fears and hatreds.

Potter, you ask what we can do and observe: “In very weak opposition we have a relatively disorganized but inclusive multi-ethnic group of liberals of varying degrees, yes with some elites and intellectuals, but probably mostly working class and/ but no articulated unifying ideology”

So, let’s define and articulate an ideology and devise an action plan to create the country we want to live in. Its that or keep complaining about things.

A leadership model that I find inspiring is that of Robert Greenleaf coined ’servant leadership’ (see more here: http://www.greenleaf.org/leadership/servant-leadership/What-is-Servant-Leadership.html). My favorite part of the definition is the test for successful leadership:
“The best test, and difficult to administer , is: do those served grow as persons; do they, while being served, become healthier, wiser, freer, more autonomous, more likely themselves to become servants? And, what is the effect on the least privileged in society; will they benefit, or, at least, will they not be further deprived?â€?”

We could combine that model with the truth force style of Mohatma Gandhi. Speaking truth to power. This means a devotion to pursuit of the truth. Something sorely lacking in in the current state of US affairs. (I wholeheartedly support David Weinstein’s suggested investigation into voter fraud and disenfranchisement.)

But all the rhetoric in the world doesn’t create change if it isn’t accompanied by action. I’ve been appalled by the lack of street protests to the plethora of scandalous happenings since the 2000 elections. I have to admit, that I haven’t known where I can put my energies effectively. Maybe a relentless series of town hall meetings to talk to people personally about building a vision for our future and creating action plans to get there.

Suggestions?

I am personally hoping that John McCain will make another run for the Presidency. I would vote for him. It seems to me that being moderate has become a very radical position indeed.

Agents’ visit chills UMass Dartmouth senior

Allison, you touched on a very important issue.

The part where you mention, “Disney movies and Abercrombie and Fitch” is a corporate lifestyle. A consumer lifestyle. It’s true that it lacks the religious aspect of meaning and higher power. Capitalism can reduce man to just a number.

What’s funny is that some of the members of this administration, although not all, has this exact type of vision for the world. PURE CAPITALISM! Well, there’s a problem. The republican’s have signed a deal with the “devil” per se. What I mean is this…

The republican spin machine has been very careful in not angering the corporate groups by being seen as anti-capitalistic. This whole “War in Christmas” is worded in a way that makes the Christians seem the victims. For example, FOX can’t come out and say, “The Corporation has monetary and profit motives above all else!” NO, FOX can’t say that because that would seem anti-capitalistic, Again, the right-wing can’t afford to loose big businesses votes because all they would be left with would be the fundamental christians (cultural votes). That’s not enough. THEY NEED THE BIG CONGLOMERATES.

So, the republican party is toeing the line. What is funny is that they are actually creating the exact consumerism that fuels the change. This is the same force they fear is marginalizing the fundamental view point. The corporation will always cater to the lowest common denominator, i.e. make the most profits possible. They way the big business see it is that selling to *EVERYONE* is better than just selling to *just the Christians.” The republicans find themselves in a catch-22.

Think about it. If the corporations were some how forced by republican law to cater to just one special interest group. Sooner or later they would vote those in power, out!

This is why the phrase “Happy Holidays” was created. It is supposed to be inclusive to everyone; Jews, Buddhist, Agnostics, Muslims, etc…Not just Christians. The Christians are jealous. They want to go back to that dangling universe of the 50’s where womanizing, racism, and whites were in power. The classical traditionalist like Bill Oreilly hate accommodating new people/cultures into this country because they have deluded themselves that it belongs to them, and them alone.

Sorry Bill! It’s about Life, Liberty & The Pursuit of Happiness for ALL! Not just one group!

You might not be able to tell. But I’m not anti-capitalistic. But I am FOR RESTRAINTS on capitalism (environmental and civil rights related)!

One of the problems that the christians (as well as other fundamental religious groups) have is that they have created a monster that they will not be able to control. So, the christians will suffer because they befriended the very entity that contradicts their view points. This is why the socialistic Christians of the UK voted for social reform back in 1945 after the war. This was a counter to the days of the Guided Age — Which we are entering into again today.

But the moment the Christians open their mouths and say, “Capitalism must be restrained” they will be labeled Socialists, even the dreaded communist! Egads!

Ha ha! That will be the day that Bill Oreilly will be called a communist! He’d run and hide! Who knows? Many someday his greed will get to his conscience…

History has shown that all traditionalist or conservatives have been forced to go screaming and kicking into each new era.

That’s why they call them conservatives. They hate change. One reason is part of their attraction to their own culture. Another is part of where they live (in a bubble?).

How many times have we heard our grandparents say something like, “Computer!” I don’t use those newfangled contraptions! No sir! I’ll stick to my transistor radio, thank you very much!”

Ignorance breads fear. And fear can be a usual political tool. As we’ve seen in this administration (rush to war for reasons other that were given).

A “Gay Marriage in Hawaii!” NEWS ALEART on FOX NEWS is much “scarier” than actually meeting the couple themselves. As long as images and perceptions are kept at a distance it’s much easier to demonize and use fear-mongering tactics.

It’s great to have a kindred soul in the trenches! I will look for your posts.
There are many e-mails from folks I have received in the last several months about how the Bush/Rove/republican party has a stranglehold on American electoral democracy. I do not know the protcal of this site so I do not want to paste some of them here until I know. Let me suggest that you vist the Free Press web site by Bob Fitrakis and harvey Wasserman. Look for a post there on or around 11/15, “Has American democracy died an electronic death in Ohio’s referenda defeats” about how this same election rigging made the 2004 election look like childs play in the public’s effort to ensure free and fair elections. that is why we are so adament about keeping those machines and systems out of California. One you et them in you can’t get them out. Also on 12/14 there should be a post about how tests in Florida have proven that memory cards in Diebold’s black box voting machines can be coded to give whatever results the criminels want. Also look for another post there about how the governement accounting office, yes the venerable old, GOA, warned that the touchscreen machines and systems of Diebold and other private vendors are ripe for foul play. Another website to check out is the government of the USA in Exile, which I suppose needs no explanation. You can google it for the exact address if need be. And of course there are the heroic American patriots at blackboxvoting.com.

All this falls into the category of, “I might be dumb but I ain’t stupid.” It’s a tragic wonder why the so called free press in America and the left doesn’t pick up on it. But I guess that’s what some folks were pondering during the Weimer republic and the rise of fascism in Germany and Europe.

Do we always have to learn the hard way?

Be well and God Bless,

David

I have been suggesting a show about what you have elaborated on above in my own more feeble way: first in the November suggestions and now in the December suggestions, with links. It’s great to have company on this issue. I will link your post above for you if you have not done so already in that thread. Please followmy links on this post

I do think we need a revolution but things will have to get much worse before they can get better along those lines.

Dear Chris and staff,

First let me express how much I have enjoyed your show since I started listen in a few months ago here on the west coast. I find every show pertinent and intelligently executed.
I have been thinking about responding to your invitation to suggest a topic for some time, this one being election fraud in 2004, which from what I can ascertain from here was highly organized and wide spread. The Jim Crow style disenfranchisement that spread from African Americans and minorities to the general public was reported on by the mainstream media but soon forgotten. The credible case for even greater election fraud by highly partisan republican owned and controlled vendors or voting machines and systems has really only been discussed and reported on the web.
So when your guest Jacob Hacker advanced his and Paul Pierson’s case of their book, The Republican Revolution and the Erosion of American Democracy, it rang the bell for me. The same thinking, mentality if you will, of the extreme wing of the republican party and that well oiled machine that put and keeps George Bush in office, that has demonstrated a brazen ruthlessness in legislative proceedings, has also demonstrated, to my lights, the same ruthlessness in the electoral system.
I do not think that Barry Goldwater or Ronald Reagan would have resorted to election fraud to advance their radical republican ideas. The nature of their conservatism was also fundamentally patriotic, it seems to me, in the sense of American democracy, and the tenants of that first revolution with its checks and balances within popular government. But I believe with NYU Mark Crispin Miller, that in gamin the electoral system in 2004, this extremist brand of the republican party overturned the very ideals that founded this country.
I will leave perhaps to a future show of yours, and the historians, political and social scientists you might invite, to examine, in my opinion, poisonous exceptionally, the cynicism, and brutal sense of entitlement that would lead to the potential destruction of this beautiful experiment in democratic government.
But first the Bush/Rove political machine has been able to cower the mainstream media by making it afraid to be labeled fringe elements, “the buzz of cyberspace.” And, of course, there is the censorial effect of the media consolidation under a few integrated mega corporations (thank God for NPR). And yet there is a growing body of investigation and evidence pointing to the fact that something went horribly wrong in the 2004 presidential election. The first is the groundbreaking and courageous work of blackboxvoting.com who were on to the potential dangers of dangers of ‘black box,’ or voting machines that have no paper or other trail (I like to call it ‘faith based voting”) and the connection to politically partisan vendor corporations. I think Jim March of black box is the Paul Revere of our age. Jim is a registered republican outraged by the affront to our rights that this kind of electronic/cyber age election rigging represents. They have discovered how the Bush/Rove machine and the partisan vendors were able to program the voting machines themselves to switch, fabricate or delete votes, and how the GEMS central tabulators could easily be hacked by outside phone lines to rig final election results. Even the department of Homeland Security notified Diebold that their voting machine system was a security risk because it could be hacked. Diebold never did anything about it while its CEO famously said he’d do anything in his power to get George the junior re-elected at a campaign fund raiser. Jim March even has some of the code that was used to hide this election rigging from the prying eyes of election officials.
Next is the 767 page book by Bob Fitrakis, Steve Rosenfeld, and Harvey Wasserman, Did George W. Bush Steal America’s 2004 Election? I believe they are all from Ohio where the 2004 election turned and were republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, and Ohio co-chair for the Bush/Cheney campaign, did his dark best to give the election his boys. Similar election fraud happened in New Mexico and Florida where, again, the paperless touchscreen voting machines were controlled by republican partisan corporations of Diebold, Triad, ES&S, Triad and Sequoia.
Then there is republican John Conyors report, What went wrong in Ohio, that the republican controlled Congress basically suppressed.
Also active and important on the scene is the Open Voting Consortium lead by Alan Dechert whose mission is to ensure transparent voting systems for all elections.
Finally there is mark Miller’s fine book that sheds new light and brings forth fresh evidence on what should be a scandal. For example, 3.4 million citizens reported to the national census bureau that they voted than were tallied in the last election. I find this book most disturbing because it puts this rigged election in perspective. This is above and beyond those citizens who unfairly couldn’t register, couldn’t vote because of to few precinct voting machines, were illegally purged from the rolls, or by tampering of absentee ballots. This figure is from the United States government. Professor Miler is an independent who holds the democratic party in some disdain. His point is that the Bush regime is not conservative. They’re profoundly un-American. They do not believe in the vote.
All this being said (and there is so much more to be said), I would like to alert you to a pending decision by acting California secretary of state McPherson whether to approve the infamous blackbox touchscreen voting machines for the 2006 elections by January. I think this would be a timely way into this tragic story for American democracy and citizen rights. Governor Schwartenegger seems to be running scared and more and more under the influence by the far right, and McPherson seems to only be going through the motions of investigating the danger of the Diebold/blackbox threat and taking citizen advisement on the matter. Happily there is a coalition in California opposing Diebold, the California election Protection Network, trying to persuade McPherson to not approve the blackbox machines. You might invite Jim March who has been active in fighting election fraud in California, a spokesman for Diebold, secretary McPherson, and perhaps Mr. Fitrakis or one of his co-authors to debate the pros and cons of whether to approve Diebold voting machines and systems in California. Alan Dechert would be ideal here. And why not invite governor Schwartzenegger to get his point of view.
I think this would be a lively debate to say the least. This would naturally lead, it seems to me, to a desire for a general discussion on the part of your listeners about if and how Bush/Rove/Diebold et al stole the 2004 election and what it means America. I think professor Miller would be ideal in this debate with Mark Hertsgaard of Mother Jones on the other side. Jim March and the other folks at blackbox should be invited. John Conyors should be asked to participate. Howard Deane recently responded to a caller on an open DNC web call that he believed what is being reported on the web abut election fraud in 2004 is substantially true. You should ask him to join in on the conversation. And why not ask his opponent at the head of the RNC? Barbara Boxer is another possibility with some republican luminary in opposition.
I think there is a third and final show on this burning issue about what the man and women in the street are doing about ht every possible stealing of their fundamental right of one person one vote in the nation. The Open voting Consortium is one such effort. Recently I received an e-mail about an ongoing law suit in new Mexico, Patricia Rojas et al, against the state and state officials to ensure that their votes are fairly counted in the next election (I will forward the e-mail). The contention is that Hispanic votes were grossly undertallied in the 2004 election. Perhaps you can find some other examples of citizens rising up to protect their right to free and fair elections, and to protect democracy itself in this great nation of ours.
As professor Miller put it, our founding parents knew that it is civic virtue and vigilance for our basic rights that is the final bulwark against tyranny.
Thank you so much for reading and considering this rather long e-mail. But I can think of no more relevant issue and no more apt place for this issue to be examined than on radio open source.
Please let me know if you decide to air any shows on the suggestions advanced here, and if I can be of any further assistance to you.

And Potter’s reply: “And it’s true—where are the Democrats? Goodness knows they have plenty of material to work with!
Is this a self-limiting disease or are we truly witnessing the destruction of our experiment?�

Which got me to thinkin’:
I was lucky in my youth to spend time in Europe. And I can tell you that to your average European in your average European multi-party parliamentary democracy, the American two-party system doesn’t look democratic in the least. How so, you ask? Well, to people who live with multi-party palate of legitimate electoral choices, our system looks like a one-party state offering the ILLUSION of choice. A corporate-oligarchic Soviet Union masquerading as a democracy, and much more effectively that the USSR ever could because the fights between the two parties seem so vicious and therefore so real.

But are they? Or is the viciousness really only a byproduct of hotly contested one-on-one elections? (Keep in mind that in many multiparty states you vote for the party, not for individual representatives.)

Or, is that the Republican right really have an ideological axe to grind, while the Dems are only interested in surviving the next Rove-ordered strafing run by the Limbaughs and O’Reillys of the rightwing attack machine?

I’ve got answers to those questions, but not answers I’m utterly confident in. But I am sure of this: We The People haven’t any real champions right now. And we won’t without fundamental constitutional change: creating a genuine multi-party palate wherein the left, right, and center all have distinct parties articulating their particular segment of the political spectrum.

Imagine, please, what a Christian Democratic Party would do for the center of American political thinking—a party wherein the planks and platform were drafted, instead of by the fundamentalist lunatic fringe, by PROGRESSIVE Christians! (Even I, an agnostic, would be a sympathizer to such a party, although I’d surely prefer a ‘Democratic Socialist’ option.)

Imagine, please, a Green Party that could actually WIN SEATS in an American national legislature. And could then partake in a coalition government! Do you think we’d have to endure any more farces like the ‘Clean Skies Initiative’?

And imagine, PLEASE, the Republican coalition broken into its real constituencies: The Moral Majority (sic) Party, The National Rifle And Machine Gun Party, The Bring Back The Confederacy And Get These Coloreds Out Of Our Neighborhoods Party, and The Corporate Oligarchy Party (whose slogan would surely be “Just let us make all the decisions and we’ll you promise Really Good Video Games for Christmas!�).

I’ve probably left out some segments of the spectrum, but surely you get my drift.
And please remember that some of the notable drafters of our current constitution expected it to evolve as the nation needed it to. I don’t think those guys — who BANNED CORPORATIONS, btw! — would rest easy if they thought the system they’d crafted would never, ever evolve, and would only and ever serve the interests of one percent of the population!

It’s time to push for change: a new system wherein the legislators answer to the People instead of to the heirs to the 18th Century’s mercantile barons.

Doncha’ think?

Nelson Rockefeller was many things, but he never wed himself to intrusive evangelicals. Goldwater didn’t like them either. Reagan never fully embraced them, but he did bring them into the tent. It’s a segment of the GOP coalition that GWB has been especially adept at courting.

When you do finally talk about national health insurance and why we need it (Mary’s wrong; the subject is not deathly boring) you should talk to the Jonathan Chait of TNR who’s writing a book on the subject for your mainstream source. For a blogger, I highly recommend Matthew Holt of the Health Care Blog. He recently wrote a great column for Chris Nolan’s new blog spot-on which attempted to introduce health policy and the politics of it to the techies of Silicon Valley. Very funny guy, he even has some podcasts.

the Spot On Column

Chris talks about the primacy of the Iraq fiasco and empire. Oh all those articles we read about empire right after 9/11 and just prioir to the invasion of Iraq!

My gut feeling from the first was that we were taken into this imperial venture for political reasons primarily: to ensure the re- election of Bush. Never mind the price. Indeed many seemed to vote for this so as to not “change horses in the midstream” of a war, even one they questioned.

If we are in the last days of Rome, as Chris says, is it because of a serious breakdown or failure in our democractic infrastructure, checks and balances, the rise of a imperial Presidency and the decline in citizenship.

The big words of the evening for me was not empire but “machine” and “motivation”.

A program about Rome, maybe a two parter, would be very interesting.

But better yet, read poetry, talk about novels and cookbooks.

I guess Allison better start looking for a fundraising commitee, hmmm?

That’s flatly brilliant. Thank You.

Next:
“If you want people to make themselves vulnerable to such scrutiny and willing to make changes, you have to give them a self-motivation for doing so, or inspire them with a higher calling. And you have to embrace them, offer them comfort as you ask so much of them. We have only had glimpses of inspiration. I can’t currently name one politician that I hear inspirationally calling us all to higher ground.�
I know it’s ancient history now (politically), but the late Paul Tsongas did just that in 1992. ’Course then Slick Willy stole his platform, distilling Tsongas’s 80+ page position booklet into a 44 page plagiarism, and Willy (who, despite this critique, I miss dreadfully) was a much better 30-second-sound-bite guy, and much better looking, too. Which brings us back to your media comments: politics in this country is now dominated by appearance and style over substance. So now we need a messenger like Tsongas in an attractive package. Hmmm… Barak Obama, anyone? (And what a pity that Jen Granholm was born in British Columbia!)

Next: “Respect their deeply held convictions, even if they seem unreasonable to you, and invite them to assist in finding workable resolutions to defining a multi-cultural tribe. Help them rid themselves of fear and they will run from the self-serving fear-mongers. They would prefer not to have fear. They just don’t know how to get rid of it. It has a grip on them.”
Great words, Allison, really. But I’m a skeptic (although not of you). One thing common to fundamentalists, Christian, Muslim, Jew, or Other, is that your respect isn’t enough. They want ALL OF US to see the world through their parochial lens – and if given enough power, they’ll begin to force it. Hence Creationism, Intelligent Design, righteous scorn of unbelievers, pillories, witch hunts, and inquisitions (each of these is a segment of the same faith-based continuum). I don’t trust their lip service to pluralism, because as the nation continues to slip into superstition, and fundamentalist Christian power waxes, they’ll begin to agitate for things like bible study in all schools. Oh, sure, it’ll start as something else, like a push for optional bible study for ‘victimized/ostracized Christian children’, but if won, it won’t stop there. Just wait. I grew up with these folks. They’d do it NOW if they thought they could get away with it.

What’s more: why in the world have we fallen into such fear of these kooks that an intellectually honest atheist is automatically disqualified for public office? I’d much rather vote for such a person than any of these christian hypocrites like Bush and DeLay!
Sigh. Canada looks better with every passing day.

Anyway, despite my partially jaded reaction, I’m with you.
Allison for President!

Motivation, Machine, Money, Media Management

Corruption, Cronyism, Competence

pushing, principles, priorities

The media/liberal idea of the ‘center’ doesn’t correspond with reality. Hard left since the 60’s baby!