FTM, thanks to everyone who took the time to post. It’s nice to read a conversation on this human subject that’s (mostly) not a miasma of demonization and accusation.

Full human rights & respect for all humans!

One topic that seems to have been missed in the broadcast and the comments – the God-like lust to harm someone and get away with it that featured so prominently in Republic as the “Ring of Gyges” story.

I see this as a foundation of most of our sexual attitudes wherein some people are set-up by circumstance (gay men are an example) to be victims of would-be gods who get lucky enough to find them and are able to harm them, often to great adulation.

The anti-abortion movement is entirely about playing anti-sex god focussed on women who are pregnant and don’t want to be. Consider the possible harms described in arguments presented to the supreme court yesterday (Wednesday 11/8). Suppressing homosexuality (as far from the topic of abortion as possible) has always been important to them.

Hate and hurt are part of being human. The best of societies suppresses both and the worst promotes both. Which are we?

Second, I’d like to add a postscript to my other post in this thread. (And thank you very much, Potter, Ben, rc21, et.al. for your overly generous words about that post – you seem happier with it than I was!)

From the peerless Shirley Manson:

“Sex is not the enemy

No evolution

Sometimes it depresses me

The same old same

Oh we keep repeating history

The institution curses curiosity

It’s our conviction

Sex is not the enemy

A revolution is the solution

A revolution is the solution

I won’t feel guilty

It fuels the heart and sex is not my enemy

A revolution is the solution

A revolution is the solution

True love is like gold

There’s not enough to go around

But then there’s God

And doesn’t God love everyone

Give me a choice

Give me a chance to turn the key

And find my voice

Sex is not the enemy

A revolution is the solution

A revolution is the solution

Sex is not the enemy

A revolution…”

http://www.alwaysontherun.net/garbage.htm#bl7

&

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6840788&BAB=M

It is unrealistic and not at all helpful to demonize those in same sex relationships any more than others for unwisely engaging in unprotected sex. If we hope to address the issue, we must see if for what it is: a human one. Putting one group on the defensive as a particularly bad offender and creating divisiveness distracts us from looking inward and helping one another.

Another comment for you, one to answer your question from Monday night about the Lesbianism issue. The answer is found in the “Christians” vilifying certain sins at their discretion to secure for themselves a sense of righteousness. In “Letter’s To Arthur Greeves” C.S. Lewis deals with this issue in a more broad scale of Christian behavior. I want to post the quote in an edited format that I used recently in another venue. This is not a direct quote but an editing of a couple paragraphs together to summarize the thought.

“That the system [Puritan Bibliolatry] denied pleasures to others as well as to the votaries themselves: whatever the merits of self-denial, this is unpardonable interference… [since] It inconsistently kept some worldly pleasures, and always selected the worst ones-gluttony, avarice, etc…

‘By their fruits ye shall know them.’ Have they the marks of peace, love, wisdom and humility on their faces or in their conversation? Really, you need not bother about that kind of Puritanism. ”

The issue is this selective self denial for the purpose of self righteousness rather than actual understanding of the Bible’s teachings. The Bible is far closer inline with liberal politics (peace and justice) than with conservative politics. However those matters are not measurable for a selection of who is in and out within these circles. So instead these true measures of spirituality are replaced with “convenient sins” that the fundamentalist pastor can assume most members of his church do not struggle with. Therefore, since MANY Christian men have strong addictions to internet pornography, and lesbianism is a major element of internet porn, it is excluded from the named avarice list.

I am deeply regretful more Christan’s do not understand the games being played. I am deeply regretful that so many I share a faith system so embarrassingly went to the polls in TN and other states thinking that darkening an oval against gay marriage was what defines “Christian Service.” I am deeply regretful we can not work together on issues like poverty and social justice because of a militant hijack of the conversation by people who want to define the nature of who is in and who is out.

Despite all my regrets. They are the people who speak for what Christianity means in the public square. They are the people who will continue to make lists that are convenient for them and their parishioners. Never lose site of the truth that there are MANY of us who they do not speak for!

That is my point. I do not want the Bible to be used by anyone to compel anyone by it’s authority, but I want it to be my authority and in the case of this broadcast, Ted Haggard wants it to be his authority, and I was disappointed with the tone that he was wrong for that.

I can assure you that I get as angry about people like Haggard and his cohorts claiming that you should be bound by by the Biblical moral system as any non-beliver. But we are suppose to be social liberals. That means he should be awarded the same courtesy by us we want him to extend to people not agreeing with his sentiments. The broadcast did not do that, instead it condemned him and his belief system, that disappointed me. Haggard should be welcome to find counseling for his “issue”