From what I’ve heard about the stated mission of Hezbollah/Iran, which is to wipe Israel off the planet, I don’t see how this peace agreement would affect them at all. It might make them more angry.

I think efforts have to be made to give the young people who are signing on to the terrorist activities other things to do. Other perceptions to hold onto.

“is it fair for the Lebanese who were NOT religiously sociopathic to be held responsible for the bigger, stronger, better-armed and famously crazy brother?”

Absolutely not. As a Lebanese myself, I despise Hizbullah, but I cannot condone the punishment of a civilian population. HA represents a portion of Lebanon’s Shiite constituency, who were historically marginalized politically and who only gained access to Lebanese public life through Iranian support in the form of Hizbullah. Thus, they are extremely protective over Hizbullah’s current status.

Because of the nature of Lebanon’s confessional system and its rather colorful history of inter-communal violence, it would have been impossible for the Lebanese Army to move militarily against Hizbullah without the army itself fracturing along sectarian lines and provoking a Lebanese civil war. This would definitely not have been in the interests of Israel. Also, Syria – Hizbullah’s patron and conduit of Iranian weapons and finance – would never have allowed this and would have stepped up its campaign of terror and assassination in Lebanon, something I doubt the Israelis would have been kind enough to step in and prevent. Therefore, the reality of the Lebanese political situation dictated that out and out military action against Hizbullah was at this time impossible. The alternatives are worse than the current situation, for both Israel and Lebanon.

“I don’t understand how bombing the Lebanese infrastructure back to where it was developmentally 20 years ago helps them gain any strength to fight the influence of Hezbollah if they wanted to.”

I agree. This campaign has done nothing but radicalize the Shiites who are going to support HA no matter how hard you bomb them while making enemies of all the other sects who are un-armed and have greater political maturity and interest in a stable and strong Lebanese government. Destroying Lebanon strengthens non-state elements and fractures the fragile democracy and country the Lebanese have worked so hard to built after 30 years of war and occupation. Shameful.

The real culprits behind this war are of course Iran and Syria, neither of which are in any danger of being attacked by the US and Israel. Thus, Israel attacks who it can not who it must. Tough luck for the Lebanese? Maybe. But don’t go on about the lack of peace in the region and animosity from Israel’s northern neighbor if this is going to be approach.

It’s ironic that in destroying Lebanon, Israel is attacking the Middle Eastern nation most likely to be open to a peacable relationship with it. Lebanon is modern, cosmopolitan and (imperfectly) democratic. This is definitely a loss.

What’s doubly ironic is how this will all end: either in civil war when the Israelis succeed in bullying the Lebanese government to use force against Hizbullah. OR in an enhanced Hizbullah position when the Israelis – who don’t have the stomach for a prolonged land war – are repelled by the Hizbullah zealots. Grim.

In fact people in the North have spent many a night in shelters because of the attacks.

Your idea that the Mossad is somehow invincible is reminiscent of the notion of the all power Jude. Israel could no more mount an operation to rescue the soldiers than the US could have to rescue the Americans held hostage in Iran in the late 70’s.

Historically, very few rescue operations succeeded. The Entebbe raid was an exception and what made it possible was tactical surprise, the fact that it was known were the hostages were being held, and the foe’s inexperience.

NOW it is. Those attacks were retaliatory, not pre-emptive.

I’m not basing this theory on movies and such. I’m basing it on the knowledge that the IDF and Mossad are two of the most highly trained military/intelligence units in the world and it seems to me that 3 soldiers is a special forces task, not a bomb all the infrastructure back a few decades task.

There is probably something in-between that would work better, I’m eager to hear it.

““Like I suggested before, it seems a better response would be to send special forces in to extricate the kidnapped soldiers.â€?

plnelson’s reply:

July 18th, 2006 at 11:44 am

“That might work in a James Bond movie, but in the real world it’s realistic. First of all they probably have no idea where the soldiers are. Secondly they would have no way sneak in with enough force to accomplish it before the kidnappers killed their hostages.”

I agree with Pinelson.

Posters here and elsewhere have been watching too many James Bond movies.

Besides, the issue isn’t only the kidnapped soldiers. It’s the ongoing missile attacks on Israeli towns and villages as well as infiltration and murder of Israelis on Israeli soil.

Thanks for the heads up on the WSJ piece.

pl (@ 11:27 AM, July 18th): no not exactly a “Stockholm Syndrome�. I’m trying to think this issue through, and maybe you can help me. Maybe we in this thread can ‘build a better metaphor.’

You offered a ‘house in a neighborhood’ metaphor – a metaphor I understand intuitively because I’m a born and bred American who grew up in the ’burbs. However, I’ve two grandparents who emigrated here from the same Aegean island; and having spent (cumulatively, over five summers) more than a year of my life visiting that island, I can tell you that American suburban neighborhoods differ substantially from the kin-centric neighborhoods of Old World, Mediterranean societies. Societies like Lebanon, Israel, and Palestine.

So, here’s my opening contribution to ‘building a better metaphor’:

If I’m Lebanese, the house to the south of mine has an interesting and tragic history. In ancient times it was home to a proud and urbane family that was forced to leave. Only one child of that family remained in the neighborhood, living as a herder in the hills out back (someone else, with better knowledge of non-Iberian Sephardic Jews, will have to flesh out this part of the metaphor). Lately, however, distant descendants of that original family began moving back into the house to my south – which created no end of ruckus and violence because the house wasn’t abandoned but had been for centuries home to others of the same neighborhood: my cousins, no less.
We, in my house, have ‘heard the fighting’ through the windows for years. And since we’re more closely related to the new family than the older one, we just can’t accept how the descendants of the ancient family thinks it still has rights to their forebears’ ancient house. Nevertheless, the descendants of the ancient family have powerful friends from another neighborhood across the sea, and so they are able, in a final, terrifying battle (1948), to evict the newer family – my cousins.

All the other families in our neighborhood (Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, etc.) are outraged at this, but their collective attempts to evict the descendants of the ancient family fail consistently – in no small part because of the powerful friends from across the sea who provide the descendants of the ancient family with weapons much better than those of the neighbors. Worse, this neighborhood is part of a culture grounded in an exaggerated (to Americans, anyway) sense of honor. Thus the outrage is doubled or even trebled by the neighborhood’s consistent collective humiliations.
My own half-brother – young, headstrong, and overly susceptible to religious chauvinism – is one of the most outraged.

Meanwhile the descendants of the ancient family, using money from overseas and their own technological industriousness (a trait they developed while overseas, that we of the neighborhood are only just beginning to learn) remake the old house into a gorgeous new mansion, a villa—and a fortress. By contrast, the family they evicted lives in two huts to the east and south of this enviable villa. The descendants of the ancient family control the lives of the evicted – and even begin adding outbuildings to the land where the huts stand.

My half-brother, crazed with religious fervor and indignation, explodes: he begins shooting willy-nilly into the windows of the fortified villa.

Who do I turn to?
Moreover, who do I sympathize with more? The descendants of the ancient family, or my kin in the neighborhood?
When hypocritical yet powerful families from overseas blame me for my brother’s descent into religiosity and irrationality, do I accept their opprobrium – they who’ve never lived in this neighborhood and can’t be bothered to practice what they preach – or do I instinctively side with my neighbors, no matter how much I, a simple Lebanese, might deplore their self-defeating resort to violence?

End of metaphor.
Now, I’m not saying one side is right and the other wrong. I’m simply suggesting that you can’t apply to the Middle East a metaphor of an atomized American neighborhood.
If we’re going to use a ‘neighborhood’ metaphor, we’ve got to strive to make it relevant, socially and culturally, to that region.

I welcome comments from pl, faysal, and anyone else. Maybe we can agree to make this thread a constructive exercise in building a better understanding instead of another ‘flame war’.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_wars )

Make that __ UNrealistic __.

Does this foru have some kind of secret “Edit” or “Preview” button like a NORMAL forum does?

If I make a bigger donation to WGBH or UMass Lowell where they show me where it is?

That might work in a James Bond movie, but in the real world it’s realistic. First of all they probably have no idea where the soldiers are. Secondly they would have no way sneak in with enough force to accomplish it before the kidnappers killed their hostages.

But more importantly, the point of all this bombing is to accomplish what SHOULD have been done long ago, which was to disarm or destroy Hezbollah.

EVERYONE – Lebanon, nearby Arab and Islamic nations, the US, the EU, the UN – has been standing by and watching while Hezbollah has been building up HUGE forces in Lebanon – thousands of troops and 13,000 missiles. There was never any doubt what these forces would be used for.

People always criticize Israel for acting alone and going against the tide of world opinion. But Hezbollah exactly illustrates why they have to do that.

The Wall Street Journal – NOT exactly a darling of the loony-left and anti-Israeli forces – has an op-ed piece in today’s issue arguing that things are working out perfectly for Hezbollah and thay are winning bigtime from all this.

This is an interesting discussion. Im Lebanese myself and are lucky enough to be here when all this stuff is taking place. My friends and I have a blog you might be interested in visiting. Your comments are welcome!

Cheers.

The UN, the world community, moderate Islamic nations, the media, etc . . .

In other words I don’t see any examples where the Lebanese government ever made a serious atempt to frame the presence of Hezbollah in their country as a problem to be gotten rid of.

Individual Lebanese did, of course, but usually they were the Druze or other groups whose motives were considered suspect. What I’m saying is that I see no evidence that anyone who spoke for Lebanon as a nation ever raised a serious alarm about this.

Are you arguing for a kind of national “Stockholm Syndrome” in which kidnap victims start to identify with their kidnappers’ interests?

As for Iranian support for Hezbullah, this reflects simple fact. Hezbullah is financed by Iran and armed by Iran. There are even Iranian Revolutionary guards in Lebanon helping Hezbollah operate against Israel. The missile that killed four Israeli sailors a few days ago was Iranian made and, according to Israeli intelligence, which is pretty good in this regard, Iranian agents were involved in teaching Hezbollah how to use such a weapon (it was a radar guided missile. Not the kind of thing you just figure out on your own) and almost certainly in firing it as well. The fact is that Hezbollah is an arm of Iran in the region. This isn’t make believe, it is simply true. (And by the by, I don’t think the WMD thing was a big lie either. Chris Hitchens is great to read on this. You can find all his stuff at hitchensweb.com)

This is not to say that it is not possible, but shouldn’t we be careful considering who is making such claims?

I’m not sure attacking Iran would be such a bad thing.
http://www.radioopensource.org/regional-war-in-the-mideast-our-role/#comment-13425

No one can tell you that, Sidewalker, because it isn’t true.

Criticizing the actions of any government including that of Israel is not antisemitic. However, denying that Israel has a right to exist IS.

Regarding the 2000 Camp David/Taba peace talks I would never characterize them as a failure because they did not result in the elusive end of conflict/peace deal. As with my feelings about Oslo, these were very important attempts at reaching an equitable solution and will stand forever as markers for their good aspects and intentions as well as the lessons learned about why they did not produce the end that all parties seemed to want. Out of the 2000 talks in particular came the Geneva Accord between Beilin and Rabbo,

See http://www.geneva-accord.org/HomePage.aspx?FolderID=11&lang=en

which shows that there is a way to an end if there is a will on every issue.

The peace process is a process, a learning process, exercises in bending, the give and take, and it does move forward. The agreements stand as monuments whether they have been respected or violated. Talks will not go back to zero. This could and should be another moment to return to that process this time with the most extreme elements included.

Regarding Sara’s about the culpability of a people for the policies or weaknesses of their government, isn’t it is always the case that the people suffer? They are ultimately responsible for what they allow or turn a blind eye towards. We are responsible for and will feel the effects of Bush’s policies, probably for years to come.

Billmon (linked above) who makes some very good points is too harsh vis a vis Israel on that point though I agree that Israel’s strategy will not work. This situation is as cruel as war; it is war. I would not say that Israel is targeting the people but I would say that Israel probably (I imagine) cares less about those who support militants. Maybe I am shaving it too close. The Lebanese, their government at least, is responsible for those who act in their name. By not gathering the strength or asking for help to contain Hezbollah; by giving them the long rope, allowing them to arm, they are complicit in the suffering of their own people at this moment. The situation with Hezbollah provoking and aiming at Israel, having been given “okayâ€? to conduct a “resistance operation” foreign policy in the name of the Palestinians across an international border makes Lebanon responsible.

This situation has been festering for years as weapons stockpile and advance, rocket training crews are allowed in etc. This makes the people, especially those in the areas that support Hezbollah, much more culpable and vulnerable. Rockets are coming from their residential neighborhoods for instance. One report said that some roofs slide back to allow the rockets to fire. We see and hear of people handing out candy and celebrating when they have struck a blow at Israel.

Hamas and Hezbollah ( “ The Party of God�) use their people, betray them in this manner and Israel complies by attacking and receiving all the blame ( part of the ugliness, immorality warfare).

I do not think that Hezbolla will ever realy be peacibly co-opted by the Lebanese government. I do strongly believe that the Lebanese government must take responsibility for permitting this terrorist army to stay in its territory with missiles that can hit thea interiror of Israel. They should 1) outlaw Hezbolla by act of parliment 2) Arrest all Hezbolla members who do not lay down their arms within a specified period of time 3) Occupy with its armed forces southern Lebanon and expel Hezbolla from there. 4)Expel Hezbolla from the entire nation

The United Nations should condemn Hezbolla as a terrorist organization. The United States should use all its influence to form a coalition of democratic, industrialized nations and the moderate Arab states including Jordan, Egypt and Saudia Arabia to guarantee financing and logistical support for the Lebanese military and security forces to secure southern Lebanon and then expel Hezbolla from its borders once and for all (and tell Iran who’s boss). Once this is done, these same nations will finance the reconstruction of the Lebanese infrastrcuture destroyed in this conflict. This same coalition should endeavor to facilitate a peace treaty between Israel and Lebannon once the meddling Hezbolla is out of the picture.

The bottom line for this recent bloodletting in the Middel East is that peace might have had a chance once again with presdent Abbas a few weeks away from putting a referendum to the Palestinian people of whether to negotiate with Israel, and the G8 summit where nukes in the hands of this Irainan regime was certainly to be right in the middle of the agenda.

It looks like Hamas and Iran, with it’s on the ground proxy, Hezbolla, are winning this bloody chess match, provoking Israel into its current response. But Israel is also to blame in a more fundamental way by believing that it can impose a solution to the Israel/Palestinian problem.

As long as there is no negotiated, compromise solution for a lasting peace with dignity and security for both sides, there will be no peace in the region. Those who thrive and indeed survive on strife and enmity will always be able to exacerbate the situation if not throw a match onto the dry tinder in the absence of peace accord acceptable to both Israel and Palestine.

I hope Chris will host Yossi Belin a key archtecht of the failed peace negotiatins when an Israeli assasinated prime minister Rabin, as well as the recent Geneva accords that come very close to settling the two-state solution. I also hope tht Chris will invite president Abbas onto ROS to get the Palestinian viewpoint on a negotiated peace.

If peace breaks out between Israel and Palestine, Hezbolla and Hamas will have no reason for being, and Iran will be left with their nukes between its knees.