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	<title>Comments on: Plamegate: The Libby Trial</title>
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	<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/</link>
	<description>Christopher Lydon in conversation on arts, ideas and politics</description>
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		<title>By: PLAMEGATE: - Open Source &#8221; Blog Archive &#8221; Plamegate: The &#171; The Plamegate Scandal</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/#comment-84672</link>
		<dc:creator>PLAMEGATE: - Open Source &#8221; Blog Archive &#8221; Plamegate: The &#171; The Plamegate Scandal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 18:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=931#comment-84672</guid>
		<description>[...] te:&#160;The  		 		   		October 4, 2007    		    		   		  		         Open Source &#8221; Blog Archive &#8221; Plamegate: The Libby Trial                [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] te:&nbsp;The  		 		   		October 4, 2007    		    		   		  		         Open Source &#8221; Blog Archive &#8221; Plamegate: The Libby Trial                [...]</p>
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		<title>By: plnelson</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/#comment-84671</link>
		<dc:creator>plnelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Feb 2007 05:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=931#comment-84671</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You didnâ€™t need â€œintelligenceâ€ to know the case for going to war against Iraq was a crock. You just needed an IQ over 70. Anyone who forgets that has brain damage.&lt;/i&gt;



Only a minority of the US public were opposed to the war.  I made a posting to BBC&#039;s &quot;Talking Point&quot; on the eve of the invasion in which I said that &quot;If we invade Iraq we had better learn what the Arabic word for &#039;quagmire&#039; is&quot;.  But I was in the distinct minority.    Tha majority of my fellow Americans disagreed with me.  The majority of the Senate also did.        But empirically it&#039;s a safe bet that the majority of both have an IQ over 70.



I have long suspected that most Americans &lt;b&gt;knew&lt;/b&gt; that the case for invasion was flimsy and fabricated, but they wanted to invade Iraq &lt;b&gt;anyway&lt;/b&gt;.   Anyone who falls for the myth that the US is always the good guys with our hearts in the right place is more gullible than the people who fell for the case for war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>You didnâ€™t need â€œintelligenceâ€ to know the case for going to war against Iraq was a crock. You just needed an IQ over 70. Anyone who forgets that has brain damage.</i></p>
<p>Only a minority of the US public were opposed to the war.  I made a posting to BBC&#8217;s &#8220;Talking Point&#8221; on the eve of the invasion in which I said that &#8220;If we invade Iraq we had better learn what the Arabic word for &#8216;quagmire&#8217; is&#8221;.  But I was in the distinct minority.    Tha majority of my fellow Americans disagreed with me.  The majority of the Senate also did.        But empirically it&#8217;s a safe bet that the majority of both have an IQ over 70.</p>
<p>I have long suspected that most Americans <b>knew</b> that the case for invasion was flimsy and fabricated, but they wanted to invade Iraq <b>anyway</b>.   Anyone who falls for the myth that the US is always the good guys with our hearts in the right place is more gullible than the people who fell for the case for war.</p>
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		<title>By: rc21</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/#comment-84670</link>
		<dc:creator>rc21</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=931#comment-84670</guid>
		<description>It appears much of the testimony given by various members of the media has been discredited. John Dickerson, Tim Russert, Walter Pincus,The yet to be called Andrea Mitchell, all have given testimony that looks to be misleading or untrue. Many in the media are now contradicting or denying things they said in the past.



Fitzgerald should have centered his investigation around the media more. It seems the truth will never come out.



I&#039;ve really lost alot of respect for Russert. One of few Democratic media types who I thought tried to show some sense of inpartiality in his reporting. He&#039;s been caught in several contradictions and for lack of a better term lies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It appears much of the testimony given by various members of the media has been discredited. John Dickerson, Tim Russert, Walter Pincus,The yet to be called Andrea Mitchell, all have given testimony that looks to be misleading or untrue. Many in the media are now contradicting or denying things they said in the past.</p>
<p>Fitzgerald should have centered his investigation around the media more. It seems the truth will never come out.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve really lost alot of respect for Russert. One of few Democratic media types who I thought tried to show some sense of inpartiality in his reporting. He&#8217;s been caught in several contradictions and for lack of a better term lies.</p>
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		<title>By: Potter</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/#comment-84669</link>
		<dc:creator>Potter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>By the way the blogs really jumped on Michael Gordon, connecting him immediately to his shared byline with Judy Miller and &quot;dissing&quot; the NYTimes. One diarist on Kos went off the deep end imo implying ( with no evidence- the same thing he was accusing Gordon of) that Gordon is pushing war on Iran now. Not true. What one could accuse Gordon of is not putting enough skepticim in his piece, ie other views. That is a valid criticism.



I think we are all learning ( or keep re-learning)  that we cannot trust this administration or anything they put out. So it&#039;s &quot;fool me once...you can&#039;t fool me again&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way the blogs really jumped on Michael Gordon, connecting him immediately to his shared byline with Judy Miller and &#8220;dissing&#8221; the NYTimes. One diarist on Kos went off the deep end imo implying ( with no evidence- the same thing he was accusing Gordon of) that Gordon is pushing war on Iran now. Not true. What one could accuse Gordon of is not putting enough skepticim in his piece, ie other views. That is a valid criticism.</p>
<p>I think we are all learning ( or keep re-learning)  that we cannot trust this administration or anything they put out. So it&#8217;s &#8220;fool me once&#8230;you can&#8217;t fool me again&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Potter</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/#comment-84668</link>
		<dc:creator>Potter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=931#comment-84668</guid>
		<description>For me the show was an excellent dialogue, an excellent back and forth. I think Larry O&#039;Donnell was trying to make a good point and Chris was right to keep harping about the lack of skepticism. We want more skepticism, investigation, truth....not dictation from the administration.



 However in allowing Judith Miller to do her reporting, it was the New York Times itself, the editors, her editors ( did she have any?) that dropped the ball. Miller was clos enough to the administration sources and could get the information/spin. But it was up to the editor to follow or couple ( in the same article or separatey)  with strong analysis and even an editorial as is happening now with re the claim about Iran&#039;s involvement in Iraq. Michael Gordon wrote an informative piece minus the appropriate skepticim ( questions) just last week. The blogs jumped all over it immediately saying &quot;here we go again!&quot;. The New York Times wrote an excellent editorial piece PLUS an analysis by James Glanz that pointed out the lack of evidence.



I don&#039;t want to puts words into O&#039;Donnell&#039;s mouth, but it seems to me that he was trying to say that we should also be asking the questions as we read and not depend on one report or reporter ( reporters have their flaws and inclinations).



True enough as well- the NYT is the paper of record, the one that the others point to, with connections and reporters far-flung and it has a responsibility.... and it did let us down as the country was prepped for war on Iraq.



 Frontline this week aired the first part of a series, as always, very good, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Secrets, Sources &amp; Spin&lt;/a&gt; related to this ROS program. You can watch online.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me the show was an excellent dialogue, an excellent back and forth. I think Larry O&#8217;Donnell was trying to make a good point and Chris was right to keep harping about the lack of skepticism. We want more skepticism, investigation, truth&#8230;.not dictation from the administration.</p>
<p> However in allowing Judith Miller to do her reporting, it was the New York Times itself, the editors, her editors ( did she have any?) that dropped the ball. Miller was clos enough to the administration sources and could get the information/spin. But it was up to the editor to follow or couple ( in the same article or separatey)  with strong analysis and even an editorial as is happening now with re the claim about Iran&#8217;s involvement in Iraq. Michael Gordon wrote an informative piece minus the appropriate skepticim ( questions) just last week. The blogs jumped all over it immediately saying &#8220;here we go again!&#8221;. The New York Times wrote an excellent editorial piece PLUS an analysis by James Glanz that pointed out the lack of evidence.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to puts words into O&#8217;Donnell&#8217;s mouth, but it seems to me that he was trying to say that we should also be asking the questions as we read and not depend on one report or reporter ( reporters have their flaws and inclinations).</p>
<p>True enough as well- the NYT is the paper of record, the one that the others point to, with connections and reporters far-flung and it has a responsibility&#8230;. and it did let us down as the country was prepped for war on Iraq.</p>
<p> Frontline this week aired the first part of a series, as always, very good, <a  href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/" rel="nofollow">Secrets, Sources &amp; Spin</a> related to this ROS program. You can watch online.</p>
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		<title>By: Seattle</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/#comment-84667</link>
		<dc:creator>Seattle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=931#comment-84667</guid>
		<description>Oops - I meant &quot;four points&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops &#8211; I meant &#8220;four points&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Seattle</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/#comment-84666</link>
		<dc:creator>Seattle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=931#comment-84666</guid>
		<description>I second (or third or fourth...) the kudos to Chris for calling O&#039;Donnell on his B.S. And I agree with michaelmross above: &quot;You didnâ€™t need â€œintelligenceâ€ to know the case for going to war against Iraq was a crock. You just needed an IQ over 70. Anyone who forgets that has brain damage.&quot;



Three points:



1. Expanding on michaelmross&#039;s comment: It was obvious for many years (well before W) that the inspections and the sanctions had nothing to do with unconventional weapons and that Saddam had been disarmed.



2. It&#039;s not the job of the media to come up with a &quot;smoking gun&quot; showing that an implausible claim is false; it&#039;s the job of the person who made the claim to provide the &quot;smoking gun&quot; that that implausible claim is true. For example, if the administration now claims that Ahmadinejad has a collection of bombs, each of which has the name of a D.C. area toddler written on it, then it&#039;s not the media&#039;s job to come up with a &quot;smoking gun&quot; showing that this is false; it&#039;s Bush&#039;s job to come up with a &quot;smoking gun&quot; showing that it&#039;s true. And the best the administration could come up with viz a viz their Iraq lies was Powell&#039;s pathetic performance at the UN, which was immediately debunked. (The American media definitely *is* guilty of ignoring the facts and instead pretending that Powell&#039;s performance was compelling.)



3. The U.S. media at the time completely ignored the fact that the inspectors were given completely free reign to go anywhere *before* the war, and that didn&#039;t stop Bush from pulling them out and invading. What more proof did they need that this war had nothing to do with WMD?



4. Even if Iraq *did* have chemical and biological weapons, that in no way justifies a U.S. invasion. The media&#039;s basic assumption in all of this is the opposite.



Again, nice job Chris on calling O&#039;Donnell on his B.S. I wish you were running the NY Times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second (or third or fourth&#8230;) the kudos to Chris for calling O&#8217;Donnell on his B.S. And I agree with michaelmross above: &#8220;You didnâ€™t need â€œintelligenceâ€ to know the case for going to war against Iraq was a crock. You just needed an IQ over 70. Anyone who forgets that has brain damage.&#8221;</p>
<p>Three points:</p>
<p>1. Expanding on michaelmross&#8217;s comment: It was obvious for many years (well before W) that the inspections and the sanctions had nothing to do with unconventional weapons and that Saddam had been disarmed.</p>
<p>2. It&#8217;s not the job of the media to come up with a &#8220;smoking gun&#8221; showing that an implausible claim is false; it&#8217;s the job of the person who made the claim to provide the &#8220;smoking gun&#8221; that that implausible claim is true. For example, if the administration now claims that Ahmadinejad has a collection of bombs, each of which has the name of a D.C. area toddler written on it, then it&#8217;s not the media&#8217;s job to come up with a &#8220;smoking gun&#8221; showing that this is false; it&#8217;s Bush&#8217;s job to come up with a &#8220;smoking gun&#8221; showing that it&#8217;s true. And the best the administration could come up with viz a viz their Iraq lies was Powell&#8217;s pathetic performance at the UN, which was immediately debunked. (The American media definitely *is* guilty of ignoring the facts and instead pretending that Powell&#8217;s performance was compelling.)</p>
<p>3. The U.S. media at the time completely ignored the fact that the inspectors were given completely free reign to go anywhere *before* the war, and that didn&#8217;t stop Bush from pulling them out and invading. What more proof did they need that this war had nothing to do with WMD?</p>
<p>4. Even if Iraq *did* have chemical and biological weapons, that in no way justifies a U.S. invasion. The media&#8217;s basic assumption in all of this is the opposite.</p>
<p>Again, nice job Chris on calling O&#8217;Donnell on his B.S. I wish you were running the NY Times.</p>
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		<title>By: hurley</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/#comment-84665</link>
		<dc:creator>hurley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=931#comment-84665</guid>
		<description>Just had a glance at the thread and hasten to slipstream katemcehane. You&#039;re right, Kate. Chris&#039;s efforts to pin &quot;them&quot; down rather than let them simply reveal themselves made for more truth, and better radio in the bargain. More of the same, please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just had a glance at the thread and hasten to slipstream katemcehane. You&#8217;re right, Kate. Chris&#8217;s efforts to pin &#8220;them&#8221; down rather than let them simply reveal themselves made for more truth, and better radio in the bargain. More of the same, please.</p>
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		<title>By: hurley</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/#comment-84664</link>
		<dc:creator>hurley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=931#comment-84664</guid>
		<description>Great to hear Chris get his Irish up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great to hear Chris get his Irish up.</p>
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		<title>By: loki</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/plamegate-the-libby-trial/#comment-84663</link>
		<dc:creator>loki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=931#comment-84663</guid>
		<description>Larry O&#039;Donnell became the publicist for Woodward and Russett. Larry&#039;s father had more courage when he took on the Boston police.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry O&#8217;Donnell became the publicist for Woodward and Russett. Larry&#8217;s father had more courage when he took on the Boston police.</p>
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