One of the questions from last night’s show was whether the situation in the Netherlands holds lessons for the US. The consensus from the comment thread and the show seemed to be that the two countries are quite different, and that it may be hard to predict future events in the US based on what’s happening now in the Netherlands. But here are two more subtle analyses of the situation — one that suggests the US should indeed take a lesson from the Netherlands, and one that suggests it should be the other way around.
The first is from Dutch blogger Martin Wisse, whose junk-mail filter ate my initial email, but who sent us this dispatch late last night. The second is from Aart Hotslag, a Dutch professor of political science at U Mass Lowell.
What’s been happening in the Netherlands is that, unlike the United States, we’ve only been an immigration country since roughly the sixties and are only now encountering the problems with integrating a large minority culture into our own. The US has had experience with this since at least the mid-nineteenth century. In many ways we have not yet evolved the mechanisms approriate for a multicultural society and as a result our tolerance is broad, but often only skindeep.
The situation in the Netherlands is a warning that no country can afford to neglect its recent immigrants. It has a duty to adapt itself to these newcomers just like these newcomers have a duty to adjust themselves to their new country. This is a process which, as the US’ experiences show, takes two to three generations and occurs naturally, but which can explode if the right spark is provided. In the Netherlands this spark was provided by the September 11 attacks and the following War on Terror, which made out all Muslims as terrorists: some Muslims then choose to confirm this view.
Martin Wisse, in an email to Open Source, 10/6/06
The whole issue is different from an immigration issue. This is a population that was invited into the country for a specific period of time – they were called guest workers. It’s very interesting because that term was introduced in this country lately, and it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up because of [the problems we've had in the Netherlands as a result of the guest worker program]. These are people who were asked to come to work with the idea they would then return home. So the expectation from both sides was that this was a temporary situation. Both sides do not work towards integration. When it turns out the population is not turning back to their home countries, but are here to stay, it turns out they have formed their own community in the larger society. So you have a double layered society, which doesn’t even want to communicate to each other. The problem of course becomes worse and worse and that’s where we’re at at this point.
Aart Hotslag, in a conversation with Open Source, 10/5/06
Lesson, how many lessons and excuses do we need?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=771427
Last update – 01:06 07/10/2006
“Czech officials: Synagogue plot may be linked to Oslo attacks
By Haaretz Service and Reuters
PRAGUE – Czech security services were investigating Friday a possible link between fresh terror threats made by radical Muslims to kill Jews in Prague and the arrest of a Pakistani citizen around two weeks ago in Oslo.”
Interesting that the professor who is here is less open and patient. The Netherlands is such a small country after all, this is understandable. Perhaps a more restrictive policy is required overall as to immigration if the country simply cannot fit any more people in. This is a shame as in general immigrants bring new energy, a vitality, along with the obvious downside. The alternative is to build walls ( as well as dikes).
Also if there is to be understanding and acceptance with Islam and the East, Middle East ( as opposed to a clash of civilizations) Europeans are at the geographical front, a place where this most naturally needs to be worked out.
I side with Martin Wisse as to how to deal though. Once you have people who have been invited and allowed to stay you must embrace them, communicate, be patient, as they eventually assimilate and everyone adapts. It’s a two way street. The alternative is to force them to go back as per the original agreement.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=408912&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770
“A Muslim minicab driver refused to take a blind passenger because her guide dog was “unclean”.
Abdul Rasheed Majekodumni told Jane Vernon she could not get into his car with the dog because of his religion.”
“Straw is backed by PM and Bishop over Muslim veil row”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=408890&in_page_id=1770&ct=5
“Jack Straw won top level support today for his opposition to Muslim women wearing the veil.
The Leader of the Commons received backing from senior figures including a Muslim peer and the Bishop of London.”
Restrictive immigration policies are meaningless. People will fill an economy to capasity regardless of political borders drawn on a map. The European economies are able to support a lot of immigration, because the birth rate is very low in Europe.
People are not going to stop coming.
Actually the Euros can easily shut off immigration from Muslim countries and bring in people from China and other non Muslim ones, samnang.
The Muslims who are already there will be asked to conform to european values or go home.
European values shmuropean values. Things change. Very few things are static. Europe is going through a painful transition. The idea of shipping all the muslims (or large subgroups of muslims) out is like saying you’re going to send all of the illegal mexicans back. Its never going to happen.
What about the values of their home countries? Are all European values virtuous and all muslim values corrupt?
Scribe, how are you going to decide which European values they need to adhere to and how are you going to measure adherance to European vallues? Enforcement of this kind of thing is a slippery slope toward real facsism.
The positive European values of free speech and openess are worth preserving. Islam has no such values and will never have them.
Things change, but Islam stays the same, doesn’t it. With them it’s my way or it’s off with your head.
For a Muslims to worry about European fascism is laughable.
Scribe has got a point.
Why should European culture change and not Arab culture? When will the Arabs allow non Muslims to settle and have equal rights with Muslims? When will the Saudis allow Churches and Synogogues to be built there?
Besides, it’s not up to Americans to tell Europeans to change their culture.
As long as Muslims keep behaving like this I don’t see the Europeans trusting them:
“Muslim Brotherhood denounces ‘Danish insult’ to Islam
Egyptian Islamic group condemns video showing young members of Danish political party mocking Prophet Muhammad; urges Muslims across world to boycott Denmark-made products…”
Associated Press Published: 10.07.06, 20:31
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3312126,00.html
it’s a crying shame that Bruce Bawer was not invited on the porgram.
He has a terrific review of the book in the Boston Globe:
When worlds collide
The tension between radical Islam and European secular values is explored in Murder in Amsterdam
By Bruce Bawer | October 8, 2006
Murder in Amsterdam: The Death of Theo Van Gogh and the Limits of Tolerance
By Ian Buruma
Penguin, 278 pp., $24.95
When worlds collide
The tension between radical Islam and European secular values is explored in Murder in Amsterdam
By Bruce Bawer | October 8, 2006
Murder in Amsterdam: The Death of Theo Van Gogh and the Limits of Tolerance
By Ian Buruma
Penguin, 278 pp., $24.95
He offers an incisive critique of the book:
“For example, he characterizes politician Pim Fortuyn, murdered in 2002, as a “potential menace†because of his “loathing of Islam†— hardly a fair description of a gay liberal’s unease over the growing number of people in his country who considered homosexuality a capital offense. Similarly, in Somali-Dutch legislator (and van Gogh scriptwriter) Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s “battle for secularism,†we’re invited to see “echoes†of her youthful “enthusiasm for the Muslim Brotherhood.†These are heroes , yet Buruma focuses repeatedly on their supposed arrogance, fanaticism, and personal eccentricities. He even calls them dangerous — while insisting that Abdelhakim Chouaati, a history teacher who thinks “9/11 was a Jewish plot,†isn’t. Buruma argues that if only Muslims can be made to feel truly “at home†in the Netherlands (where they make up nearly half the urban population), all will be well.
Never mind that Chouaati, who does feel at home there, still wants to see it under sharia law.
Chouaati isn’t the only Islamist sympathizer depicted here as gracious, sensitive, and quietly thoughtful. Nora, a student, sweetly endorses jihad; Farhane, an actor, owes his career to van Gogh but won’t explicitly condemn his murder. “I can see how one can be pushed into it,†Farhane admits, calling “Submission†“an insult, the kind of insult I could never forget.â€â€¦â€
He also says that
“True, some European Muslims are painfully vulnerable — notably girls forced into marriage by their fathers, and women whose husbands see wife-beating as a sacred right. Also vulnerable in Europe today are groups that are the special objects of Muslim contempt. The leading Dutch gay rights organization admits that thanks to Muslim gay-bashing, tolerance in Amsterdam is slipping away “like sand through the fingersâ€; a 2004 French government report asserted that “Jewish children can no longer get an education†in France , owing to abuse by Muslim classmates.Continued…â€
Finally,
“Significantly, one category of Dutchmen is conspicuously absent from Buruma’s interviewees: ordinary non-Muslims whose lives have been transformed by Islamization. You’d never know from Buruma that while Islamic immigration continues, emigration is skyrocketing as ethnic Dutchmen flee a country where they feel increasingly unsafe.â€
For those of you who want to see more Muslim immigration into the US take heed.
http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2006/10/08/when_worlds_collide/
The problem, btw is world wide:
Australia a Muslim nation: advisor
October 08, 2006
“AUSTRALIA is a Muslim nation, the head of Prime Minister John Howard’s Muslim advisory board says.
Dr Ameer Ali says most Australians practise Muslim values but the Muslim community is being alienated and disadvantaged by Islamophobia.
Dr Ali said multiculturalism was Australia’s destiny but Muslims, as latecomers, were being disadvantaged.
“We would like to remain in this country as citizens like anybody else, but with cultural individuality preserved,” he said.
“We want an Australia which is like a fruit salad with a nice juice in it, not a mega fruit juice.”
Before addressing a conference on national identity today, Dr Ali said Muslim values were practised in Australia.
“When I go abroad, they ask me where do I come from? I say I come from a Muslim country,” he said.
“Which country, they say. Australia.
“That’s not a Muslim country. Yes it’s Muslim country.
“For the value that my religion preaches, these people practise.
“So I see Islam here but (the people) may not be Muslims, but in (other) countries I see Muslims but not Islam.
“So when I come back to Australia, I’ve been told to respect Australian values and now I am confused, because I see no contradiction at all.”
He says that
“Values are universal. Human values – there is no such thing as Australian values.”"
If that is the case why not adopt secular Australian values, why insist on Islamic values as the standard?
This guy too is a moderate:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20545617-1702,00.html
And it gets better. From a Gulf Times article which is published in Qatar a “moderate” Muslim State:
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=111804&version=1&template_id=47&parent_id=27
“Muslims are ordained to call their enemies to Islam before fighting against them. If they refuse, Muslims should call them again to pay the tribute and submit to the laws of Allah. If the enemy refuses again, Muslims should fight them so that there may be no persecution and religion should be for Allah alone.”
It ends on a note of triumphalism:
“All these commandments prove that the desire for exploitation and domination is not the goal of holy war (Jihad) in Islam, but its sole aim is to deliver people from man-made-object-service to the service of Allah, the Creator. Holy war (Jihad) is only a means to propagate truth and mercy among people.”
So mmoderation means it’s the Muhammedan way or the highway and if I am in a good mood I will not chop of your head.
Still there are some positive signs:
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-10-08T115852Z_01_BLA829259_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAN-CLERIC.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
Clashes in Iran to defend critical cleric: reports
Sun Oct 8, 2006 7:59am ET
“TEHRAN (Reuters) – Supporters of a senior Shi’ite Muslim cleric who has challenged Iran’s system of clerical rule have clashed with police during a protest outside the cleric’s house, Iranian media reported on Sunday.
Police used teargas to disperse the crowd, which was estimated at 200 people or more, who had gathered on Saturday outside the home in southern Tehran of Ayatollah Mohammad Kazemeini Boroujerdi, newspapers reported.
Etemad-e Melli daily said protesters formed a cordon around the house to call for the release of Boroujerdi’s followers who they said had been detained. Some newspapers said the crowd feared Boroujerdi might himself be arrested.
Seday-e Edalat reported that the crowd, some carrying knives, lit fires to stop police approaching the house. A picture showed police in riot geared lined up near a crowd of people in the street and smoke rising up.”
This particular cleric opposes the Islamic revolution:
“The Iranian authorities are wary of any challenge, particularly from top clerics, to the system of clerical rule that was established after the 1979 Islamic revolution by revolutionary leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.
“We believe that our nation is tired of political religion and they want to return to traditional religion,” Boroujerdi told Iran’s labor news agency ILNA on Saturday.
He said he had written to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana, Pope Benedict and other leaders asking them “to make efforts to spread traditional religion”, ILNA reported.”
Ironically these followers of moderate Shiitism chanted:
“The protesters outside Boroujerdi’s home chanted “God is greatest” and verses from the Muslim holy book, the Koran. One newspaper said a placard they carried read: “We are ready to be martyred for defending traditional religion.”
As an ayatollah, Boroujerdi holds one of the highest ranks in the Shi’ite Muslim religious hierarchy.”
It seems like many people paint a two-dimensional caracature of muslims (and other outsiders) based on the most radical extreems. There is a lot of Xenephobia going around on both sides. It doesn’t seem right that one side should have to do all of the conforming and catering to the needs of the other. The fact is European thought is moving east anyway. Euros are eating the food of muslim countries. Euro music is taking a south asian flavor. Its all about exchange not conformance.
Demanding conform will only breed more radicalism.
Samnang, Dr Ali of Australia is not an extremist. He is also an advisor to the government there. Moreover, Qatar is supposed to be a moderate country with a moderate press.
It is you then who is painting a caricature of Islam when you insist that their views are not representative of that religion. One can caricature Islam as a religion of war or as a religion of peace, can’t they.
The point is to deal with those elements within that religion that are calling for Jihad and are murdering non Muslims in the name of religion. If Muslims themselves would do that then the problem would disappear, wouldn’t it.
Martin Amis the British writer made an interesting point when he said that in Britain,,
“”When I come back to Britain I see a pretty good multicultural society,” he said. “The only element that is not fitting in is Islam. Who else isn’t fitting in?” ”
You can’t blame the West for Islam’s inability to adopt to a multicultural world, Samnang.
I couldn’t help but thinking as I listened to this show of the way multiculturalism hit the road at a prestigious new england private school i taught at a little while ago, and i should add, i don’t think this place was exceptional.
the short version of the story is the place talked a lot about its commitment to diversity, about tolerance, etc. but whenever things got complicated, whenever conflict arose between longheld institutional (substitute “national”) values and the those of newcomers, the response of the traditionally privileged constituencies (substitute “native dutch”) went something like this, “well, hey, they’re here now, so it’s time to play by our rules.”
and i guess what i want to say is how much institutional advocates of multiculturalism depend on its coming very cheap. or to put it another way, if you’re serious about diversity, you got to be willing to renegotiate the rules. newcomers don’t always see their values as things they ought to lay down outside the door, and that’s especially true when they enter institutions (or nations) talking about tolerance and diversity.
I am not as cynical about it as you seem to be, materialistfriends.
Mutliculturalism is a reality in all societies. It’s part of the social diversity of life which is true also in nature.
However, it can’t be artificially imposed. This is what the multi-culites need to learn.
It also can’t apply to cultures that themselves reject multiculturalism as they reject pluralism. This is what Martin Amis, I think, was getting at.
It was Europes leftist P.C. ideas that have brought about most of the problems we are seeing now. It is to late for Europe. They must accept the fact that immigrants from the middle east,Asia and Africa will be running their countries within the next 50 to 100 years. Factor in immigration declining birth rates for europeans, a leftist media and political system, and you have the makings for a Europe that will look nothing like the Europe that our parents may have visited in the 50′s 60′s or 70′s.