Comments on: Redistricting: The Art and Science of Gerrymandering http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/ Christopher Lydon in conversation on arts, ideas and politics Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:09:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Gerrymandering › Arts and Sciences http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/#comment-75795 Gerrymandering › Arts and Sciences Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:56:04 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=605#comment-75795 [...] 8217;ll have some thoughts to share on it here soon), and I just noticed this radio show, Redistricting: The Art and Science of Gerrymandering, linked [...] [...] 8217;ll have some thoughts to share on it here soon), and I just noticed this radio show, Redistricting: The Art and Science of Gerrymandering, linked [...]

]]> By: A Good Reference on Gerrymandering Issues - it’s killing America « http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/#comment-75794 A Good Reference on Gerrymandering Issues - it’s killing America « Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:18:21 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=605#comment-75794 [...] epresentatives give excuses, gerrymandering is one of the basic problems in America today. http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science- [...] [...] epresentatives give excuses, gerrymandering is one of the basic problems in America today. http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science- [...]

]]> By: tbrucia http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/#comment-75793 tbrucia Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:17:06 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=605#comment-75793 This discussion is (mostly) based on the idea that elected officials are responsible to those who elected them, and that decisions of government are greatly influenced by the public. But mobilizations of disciplined 'base' are closer to the way the system really works... An energized base and control over how the rules are written trump the democratic myth (myth = legendary narrative that expresses the ideology of a culture). One can call gerrymandering a solution (if one holds power) or a problem (if one is trying to seize power) -- but after everything is said and done, most frequently the Golden Rule applies: "He who has the gold, rules." Fortunately there are exceptions to this, but those who seek to depose those who hold the power to write rules benefitting themselves should not kid themselves that those holding power will relinquish it without a dirty, tough, underhanded struggle... No 'mathematical formulae' will do the trick! This discussion is (mostly) based on the idea that elected officials are responsible to those who elected them, and that decisions of government are greatly influenced by the public. But mobilizations of disciplined ‘base’ are closer to the way the system really works… An energized base and control over how the rules are written trump the democratic myth (myth = legendary narrative that expresses the ideology of a culture). One can call gerrymandering a solution (if one holds power) or a problem (if one is trying to seize power) — but after everything is said and done, most frequently the Golden Rule applies: “He who has the gold, rules.” Fortunately there are exceptions to this, but those who seek to depose those who hold the power to write rules benefitting themselves should not kid themselves that those holding power will relinquish it without a dirty, tough, underhanded struggle… No ‘mathematical formulae’ will do the trick!

]]> By: Jon Garfunkel http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/#comment-75792 Jon Garfunkel Fri, 08 Sep 2006 03:22:28 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=605#comment-75792 oolitic: Yes, I concede the point. I spent too long contesting the rectalinear proposal using weak arguments; for what it's worth, I withdraw my silly point about uneven factor. Also, of course, population distribution is not a hurdle for the rectalinear districting. But history, sociology, geography, and practicality are. Let's start with practicality. As I had posted, I had re-mapped around with the 8 congressional districts of Eastern Massachusetts back in 2002. No software in existence could have provided me with population per square grid. I did have the population for each municipality, which were readily available from online sources. As I explained then, I wanted to aim for compactness and the respect of municipal boundaries. <i>And this is what Open Source is all about.</i> If I didn't have the data, there was no way I could have produced a candidate map (and without the Internet, I could have, at best, mailed it to Seth Gitell at the Phoenix). If there were a law which required rectalinear districts, there would be very few software tools to allow people to draw competitive maps, and with fewer tools, they'd be more expensive, and be in the hands of fewer people. oolitic: Yes, I concede the point. I spent too long contesting the rectalinear proposal using weak arguments; for what it’s worth, I withdraw my silly point about uneven factor. Also, of course, population distribution is not a hurdle for the rectalinear districting.

But history, sociology, geography, and practicality are.

Let’s start with practicality.

As I had posted, I had re-mapped around with the 8 congressional districts of Eastern Massachusetts back in 2002. No software in existence could have provided me with population per square grid. I did have the population for each municipality, which were readily available from online sources. As I explained then, I wanted to aim for compactness and the respect of municipal boundaries.

And this is what Open Source is all about. If I didn’t have the data, there was no way I could have produced a candidate map (and without the Internet, I could have, at best, mailed it to Seth Gitell at the Phoenix). If there were a law which required rectalinear districts, there would be very few software tools to allow people to draw competitive maps, and with fewer tools, they’d be more expensive, and be in the hands of fewer people.

]]> By: benthams_head http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/#comment-75791 benthams_head Thu, 07 Sep 2006 21:43:37 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=605#comment-75791 One significant issues that has not been addressed is the relative undercounting of poor and minority households during each decennial census. Statistically speaking, certain ethnic and racial minorities tend to be more transient and more incented to stay under the government radar. The Census Bureau attempted to rectify this shortfall in 2000 by applying a sampling adjustment to the enumeration, but the plan was shot down by the Supreme Court. Until these populations are truly represented by the count, they will never be fully represented by the congress. One significant issues that has not been addressed is the relative undercounting of poor and minority households during each decennial census. Statistically speaking, certain ethnic and racial minorities tend to be more transient and more incented to stay under the government radar. The Census Bureau attempted to rectify this shortfall in 2000 by applying a sampling adjustment to the enumeration, but the plan was shot down by the Supreme Court. Until these populations are truly represented by the count, they will never be fully represented by the congress.

]]> By: oolitic http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/#comment-75790 oolitic Thu, 07 Sep 2006 17:58:02 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=605#comment-75790 Jon: But, as I explained, populations are not equally distributed by area. Jon, this is a laughable. It is a completely irrelevant point. Did you take avec's suggestion to _also_ mean one of the following: a) Each rectangle is the same shape b) No rectangle can overlap c) math is hard In retrospect, I think the real problem of a geometric/mathematical constructions is that the innumerate masses are too confused by "complicated math". If your're local, and care to meet, I can explain how this simple, very workable, plan is quite achievable. Jon: But, as I explained, populations are not equally distributed by area.

Jon, this is a laughable. It is a completely irrelevant point.

Did you take avec’s suggestion to _also_ mean one of the following:

a) Each rectangle is the same shape

b) No rectangle can overlap

c) math is hard

In retrospect, I think the real problem of a geometric/mathematical constructions is that the innumerate masses are too confused by “complicated math”.

If your’re local, and care to meet, I can explain how this simple, very workable, plan is quite achievable.

]]> By: bft http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/#comment-75789 bft Wed, 06 Sep 2006 12:18:50 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=605#comment-75789 JonGarfunkel: Try those other numbers yourself. The same method will work for a set of rows for 8 = 3 + 3 + 2, for example. The horizontal lines are adjusted to give 3/8, 3/8, and 1/4, and then the vertical lines are adjusted to give thirds, thirds, and halves of those strips respectively. Draw the map. I drew the one you asked me to draw. I am not trying to "prop up" the idea, only to show that the idea you dismissed as not feasible for non-rectangular states is in fact feasible. The method is not worthy of dismissal on that basis. It is true that an effort to give maximum compactness will not give rectangles, or partial rectangles, and there is no reason to exclude the more compact possibilities just because rectangles are easier to explain the method for. On the other hand, it is not correct to say the rectangles and partial rectangles are "not compact" to any degree. The formal measure of compactness will show a better value for these partial rectangles than for many districts that are in effect now. JonGarfunkel: Try those other numbers yourself. The same method will work for a set of rows for 8 = 3 + 3 + 2, for example. The horizontal lines are adjusted to give 3/8, 3/8, and 1/4, and then the vertical lines are adjusted to give thirds, thirds, and halves of those strips respectively. Draw the map. I drew the one you asked me to draw. I am not trying to “prop up” the idea, only to show that the idea you dismissed as not feasible for non-rectangular states is in fact feasible. The method is not worthy of dismissal on that basis. It is true that an effort to give maximum compactness will not give rectangles, or partial rectangles, and there is no reason to exclude the more compact possibilities just because rectangles are easier to explain the method for. On the other hand, it is not correct to say the rectangles and partial rectangles are “not compact” to any degree. The formal measure of compactness will show a better value for these partial rectangles than for many districts that are in effect now.

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/#comment-75788 Potter Wed, 06 Sep 2006 11:35:28 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=605#comment-75788 I should have noted that there is a certain amount of pride involved in having your rep, perhaps your neighbor (who you can meet at an uncrowded pancake breakfast) in Congress. I should have noted that there is a certain amount of pride involved in having your rep, perhaps your neighbor (who you can meet at an uncrowded pancake breakfast) in Congress.

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/#comment-75787 Potter Wed, 06 Sep 2006 11:33:14 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=605#comment-75787 I like district candidates I guess because we have a super rep in the House: Jim Mc Govern willing to stick his neck out and go against the pack. But I don't see why we cannot retain the districts, allow people to vote for the reps that are running in their district OR cast their vote for one in another district if it is felt that that candidate better represents their views. Because I am black or Jewish or Latino and live in a certain district does not means that I will want the rep that everyone in my district wants. I have to listen again but was Chris trying to make this last point? I like district candidates I guess because we have a super rep in the House: Jim Mc Govern willing to stick his neck out and go against the pack. But I don’t see why we cannot retain the districts, allow people to vote for the reps that are running in their district OR cast their vote for one in another district if it is felt that that candidate better represents their views. Because I am black or Jewish or Latino and live in a certain district does not means that I will want the rep that everyone in my district wants. I have to listen again but was Chris trying to make this last point?

]]> By: Jon Garfunkel http://www.radioopensource.org/redistricting-the-art-and-science-of-gerrymandering/#comment-75786 Jon Garfunkel Wed, 06 Sep 2006 03:13:32 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=605#comment-75786 sidewalker, thanks. BTW, here's the answer toChicago: Cook County covers mostly 7 congressional districts; each is neatly drawn so that its representatives, well, represent the makeup of their districts: 3 black, 2 Jewish, 1 Polish-American, 1 Hispanic... in the 4th. Geographically "bent" but ethnically quite orderly. sidewalker, thanks.

BTW, here’s the answer toChicago:

Cook County covers mostly 7 congressional districts; each is neatly drawn so that its representatives, well, represent the makeup of their districts: 3 black, 2 Jewish, 1 Polish-American, 1 Hispanic… in the 4th. Geographically “bent” but ethnically quite orderly.

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