84 Responses to “Talking Turkishness”

1. razib Says:
   October 18th, 2006 at 3:50 am

   Why is it such a taboo subject?

   I will offer a tentative answer to this: I believe that the reason that it is such a taboo subject for Turks is that the Armenian genocide occured during the genesis of the modern Turkish nation. By “Turkish nation” I mean an ethnic nation in the sense that we understand such a thing after the French revolution, not the idea of a general ethno-linguistic affinity, but its tight coupling to national-historical identity. In the first decades of the 20th century the Ottoman Empire fell, and the Turkish nation-state was born.

   Unlike Persians Turks do not have a great pre-Islamic history aside from being barbarians in the margins of the stories of other culture (e.g., in the Shāhnāma). Turkish history begins with Islam, and after the decline of the Arabs the Turks became the imperial people of Islam. Turks were not ethnically exclusive, theirs was an assimilative identity, genetic studies suggest that Anatolian Turks themselves are no more than 20% Central East Asian genetically (quite often closer to 10% depending on the study). Mehmet the Conqueror (the man who turned Constantinople into Istanbul) enjoyed Persian as his language culture. Many of the Ottoman padishahs were the offspring of mothers born Christian. Many of the Ottoman viziers were from the conquered peoples, while the Jannissaries were famously drawn from the Christian subjects.

   In the first two decades of the 20th century Ataturk had to transform this cosmopolitan but Islamic identity into a parochial national culture with Islam pushed to the side. The loss of Arab and Balkan lands made the state more Turkish, and the “transfer” of population bolstered the ethnic quality of the nation state as Greeks left and Turks the Balkans entered the Anatolia (Ataturk’s family was from Salonika). Simultaneous with the rise of a genuine Turkish national identity which was decoupled from Islamic cosmopolitanism the Armenian genocide occured. Germans today generally accept responsibility for the Holocaust, but German identity existed, and the German nation, long before this event. Acceptance of the Armenian genocide as a real event for which national guilt is necessary would be the original sin of the rise of Turkey and poison the well from its inception.

2. pryoung Says:
   October 18th, 2006 at 10:57 am

   Ah, so many thanks for that rich and concise historical analysis, razib. I’m left curious about the last line, though, and whether the process of responsibility acceptance (or truth and reconciliation, if you will) can’t be the starting point for a needed reinvention of national identity.

   The forging of modern nationhood has usually required both violence and forgetting, if I could paraphrase Ernst Renan, and propagating the fiction of the nation requires no small amount of of collective psychic repression.

   But aren’t there recent examples of nations attempting to undergo a public “process” through which the re-airing of a violent and traumatic past and the adjucation of responsibility have at least opened the possibility of reconciliation and moving forward as a national community? Cambodia is currently going through something like this (though it’s early in the game), as did South Africa earlier, and Germany and France as well (however imperfectly) with regard to World War II and the Holocaust. With Pamuk’s trial and the French resolution, are we seeing the……uh……..birth pangs of that happening in Turkey?

3. hurley Says:
   October 18th, 2006 at 2:19 pm

   I hesitate to add grist to jdyer’s sordid mill, but a friend who has been going to Turkey the last five years, learning the language, reading the literature beyond Pamuk and Kemal, notes a violent shift in mood vis à vis the West. She’s uneasy with people she regarded as friends. The agreeably tipsy hotel owner now aggressively abstemious, his new-found religious fervor, not to mention his bank balance, at odds with the demands of his clientele, so he storms around in a state of peculiar alienation. Should they stay or should they go? Anyone willing/able to frame that alienation as a question for Chris and his guests?
   The wonderful American writer Harry Matthews wrote a sequence of poems about Armenia. Get him if you can.

4. andycarvin Says:
   October 18th, 2006 at 3:24 pm

   I’ve traveled extensively in Turkey and used to speak a modicum of Turkish – it’s amazing how saying a few iyi aksamlars burada cok guzels will open up doors there. There are few places I’d rather be, nor few people I’d rather spend time with. Which is why it’s always hurt when I get vicious emails from Turks who are upset about my use of one word: Kurdistan.

   When I first visited Turkey in September 1999, my wife and I backpacked from Istanbul to Mt. Ararat, including the predominantly Turkish areas of the southeast. We became lifelong friends with our local guide, who’s Kurdish; he’s even visited us in the US. But because I blogged about my experience there, I’ve received a constant stream of hatemail because I referred to the region as Kurdistan, and perhaps more eggregiously, used the term on a map. My intention wasn’t to sugest this was a political area, but a cultural one. Unfortunately that argument hasn’t resonated well.

   For a period of several years, I would receive emails on a weekly basis from Turks, all of whom appeared to be using a form letter-like response. The letters would be kind to me and thank me for visiting Turkey and writing about the experience, but them inform me that my use of the word Kurdistan was both incorrect and inappropriate. They would then demand that I would remove all references to the term immediately. For each email, I had my own form letter explaining my position, again saying that in no way was I suggesting that Kurdistan was an official geopolitical place, but merely a cultural reference point. Some people would not reply, while others accepted this; a few others would write back and inform me that Kurds were historically “mountain Turks” so there was no need to call them anything besides Turks.

   Things quieted down for a few years. Then came the hack attacks. Around two years ago, someone hacked into my site, edwebproject.org, and filled it with Turkish graffiti. These were easily fixed. More disturbing, I then tried to access my Yahoo account and found it wasn’t working. Suddenly, I received an email apparently from myself – ie, my yahoo account, with another email that was a variation of the same form letter:

   > While i was searching something about Turkey, i found your webpage. it
   > is very nice and usefull. I am very glad.
   >
   > But there is not a Kurdistan country (government || state ) in Turkey.
   > if you try a little search you can find a lot of information about
   > this region… Can you erase Kurdistan title from your map which is
   > at your homepage (http://www.edwebproject.org/anatolia/home.html).
   > if you interested about these topics i can send you clarification.
   > Also, I can help you make corrections about redesigning your map (html
   > and PhotoShop works)

   There was no explicit threat, but they had made their point: I can hack into your yahoo account and make your life hell unless you remove all references to Kurdistan. My response was to email him (or myself, as it were, since he took over my account), apologized for the misunderstanding, and made my argument that Kurdistan was intended for cultural reference only, and I would not change it. I then asked him to read my blog entries for my Turkey trip and judge for himself whether I was biased against Turks. The next day, I received an email with a login/password for me to reaccess my account, with no other explanation given.

   Lesson learned: talking Turkey is always complicated. -andy

   Turkey blog: http://www.andycarvin.com/archives/travel/turkey/

   The map that gets me in trouble: http://edwebproject.org/anatolia/home.html

5. hurley Says:
   October 18th, 2006 at 3:29 pm

   Thanks andycarvin.

6. andycarvin Says:
   October 18th, 2006 at 3:30 pm

   Correction – that post should have said “predominantly Kurdish areas of the southeast,” not “Turkish areas.” Would love to see a preview page before I post so hastily. :-/

7. Old Nick Says:
   October 18th, 2006 at 3:30 pm

   What hurley said. (Again!)

8. Murat Altinbasak Says:
   October 18th, 2006 at 11:22 pm

   “Acceptance of the Armenian genocide as a real event for which national guilt is necessary would be the original sin of the rise of Turkey and poison the well from its inception.”

   Razib, Turks suffered very heavy casualties during the Wars of Independence. Have the nations of Italy, Britain, Greece, Russia, France, and Armenia expressed any “national guilt” or remorse for their despicable acts against the Turkish people? Why the double standard? How many memorials exist, commemorating the Turks who gave their lives fighting against the violent attempt by the Allied Powers to colonize their home land? How many Turks feel ill-will towards the above named aggressors? How many Turks seek to collect reparations? How many Turks died? Does anyone know or care? Regrettably not, because for Turks, globally inciting and sustaining pity for their dead is not a habitual national past time.
   Ataturk did more than just “transform” Turkey. First and foremost he was the unifying factor who deserves credit for saving Turkey from the land-grabbing Allies and delivering it to the people.

9. jdyer Says:
   October 18th, 2006 at 11:54 pm

   hurley Says:

   October 18th, 2006 at 2:19 pm

   “I hesitate to add grist to jdyer’s sordid mill, but a friend…”

   It’s not my “sordid mill” hurley. There is a rela world out there. Get used to it.

   Your pointless attack on me pissed me off, hurley. Don’t complain when I hit back.

   I didn’t intend on posting here since I know very little about Turkish literature and hope to read Pamuk sometime.

10. jdyer Says:
    October 18th, 2006 at 11:55 pm

    I am hoping, btw, that the show will not be given over to politics, entirely.

    Pamuk is supposed to be an interesting and intelligent writer and I’d like to hear about his view of modern literature, both Turkish, and Western.

11. razib Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 1:39 am

    How many memorials exist, commemorating the Turks who gave their lives fighting against the violent attempt by the Allied Powers to colonize their home land?

    *shrug* A Turk speaks of “colonization”? Are Turks not sons of the conquerors, from the Danube to the Brahmaputra? I’ll save the tears.

12. metin Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 7:15 am

    I am quite unhappy about Mr. Pamuk’s literary merit being lost amid the discussions of genocide and the political implications. But it is Mr. Pamuk who received more headline news attention about his comments than anything he could have masterfully written about in his books. An ‘Oscar’ winner is believed to be judged on his/her performance regardless of the political statements he/she may have made (or so states the Academy publicly. Remember Vanessa Redgrave?)

    However, I also feel that Turkey should take advantage of this current climate of pro-Turkish sentiment from the West based on the publicity generated about the achievements of a Turk, literary and otherwise, as well as within Turkey from Turks who feel a sense of pride as a result, even if they are uneasy about celebrating Pamuk being taken as a sign of any acceptance of genocide without debate and discussion.

    In reality, Orhan Pamuks’ comments did not specifically and automatically indicate that Turkey was the responsible party, and even if it had, did he mean for Turkey to be accused of ‘systematic’ killings indicating genocide. He believed, as I believe, in the open dialogue to resolve unanswered questions the entire world is fully aware of, the Armenians have an answer for, and that Turks keep hidden in their closet.

    Interestingly enough, in a related development, I believe France, as an existing member of ‘Europe,’ having been granted automatic admission, has taken a giant step backward by restricting the freedom of expression and speech, while Turkey clearly has shown progress in recent years, albeit in the name of gaining admission to the EU, or due to the pressures of public opinion of sympathy toward writers like Pamuk. I feel sorry for the Armenians siding with the French on this one, leaving them in a precarious position of on the one hand demanding that Turkey ease up on the restrictions surrounding the discussion of ‘genocide,’ and on the other celebrating the restriction of any discussion from taking place and denial of genocide.

    It is true that maybe the Turks need to rise up and start asking questions and resolve this issue once and for all. But it also time that maybe the Armenians should favor freedom of expression about claims of rejecting genocide as much as they do in accepting it.

13. sidewalker Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 7:29 am

    razib, I can’t just shrug this aside. So I hope you don’t mind if I shed your tears and mine.

    The history of the world is one of stepping in and stepping aside. It’s a sad story of conquest and we are most likely not the offspring of the vanquished. For my forefather’s and foremother’s deeds, from centuries past, I ask forgiveness. And let me find a space of invitation and openness, where I need not banish another or expunge the memories of all who have suffered exile and extermination.

14. razib Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 12:25 pm

    “It’s a sad story of conquest and we are most likely not the offspring of the vanquished.”

    and the victors. we all have blood on our hands and have been bloodied. i, as the scion of an upper-middle-class bangladeshi family am not born with the same stigma as a black american whose ancestors were slaves. though we are both people of color we do not experience the same level of racism. yes, i am espousing a double standard in terms of turkish resistance to colonization vs. the armenian genocide, because different acts of violence are of different offences against human dignity. the european attempt to partition turkey is simply one act in a long series of actions between 1800 and 1945 in the long history of colonialism. much of it was quite violent. but, these acts are i think qualitatively different than the european genocides against the jews, or the hollowing out of the congo during the reign of king leopold of beligum, or, the genocide of the armenians. because we focus on the latter does not negate the gravity of the former, but neither am i willing to grant all slights equal worthiness at the table of notice.

15. Old Nick Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 12:43 pm

    A big question seems to be lurking, just out of conscious sight, in this thread. And so far, I don’t sense any emerging awareness of it, let alone a nascent consensus on it. Not even an embryonic one.

    I am troubled by our tendency to conflate descendants with ancestors. No modern Turk participated in the Armenian genocide. Modern Armenians, meanwhile, largely live elsewhere.

    When does a nation-state relinquish its ‘collective guilt’ for crimes committed by people mostly or entirely dead? How long is a nation-state responsible to the survivors of peoples it once exploited or tried to annihilate?
    Can, how, and when do the people descended from the perpetrators win forgiveness from descendants of the victims?

16. jdyer Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 1:23 pm

    razib Says:

    October 19th, 2006 at 12:25 pm

    Save your maudlin rant for a thread about Imperialism.

    Let’s talk about literature here.

17. razib Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 1:33 pm

    idyer, what’s your problem? seriously, i was polite when i corrected your misimpressions earlier re: spinoza, but i’ll keep your attitude in mind from now on

18. metin Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 2:19 pm

    It is unfortunate, in my opinion, that this program too will end up being about Turks who hate the usage of the word ‘genocide,’ and anything associated with it, against Armenians who use the double standard of asking for easing of restrictions on the one hand in the case of Turkey, and applauding the restrictions as imposed by the French, showing their true colors.

    I am hoping that there will be some discussion of the content of Mr. Pamuk’s works.

19. jdyer Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 2:43 pm

    “seriously, i was polite when i corrected your misimpressions earlier re: spinoza,..”

    You mean when he first published his book on biblical interpretation?

20. jdyer Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 2:45 pm

    “I am hoping that there will be some discussion of the content of Mr. Pamuk’s works.”

    I agree.

    I have no problem with a discussion about Turkish history and politics, but there are few chances to learn about its literature. I hope we can take advantage of this one.

21. hurley Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 3:05 pm

    jdyer: Like most bullies, you’re remarkably thin-skinned. A single harsh word — after all the many you’ve directed at people here — and you wail that you’ve been “attacked.” That you’re “pissed off,” in that ugly, meaningless phrase. Would you prefer you were “pissed on”? You imply, in true-blue fashion, alas, that you’re a victim, reminding me of your complaint elsewhere that the staff at ROS ignore you. You are aware they occassionally delete your posts, no? (They shouldn’t.) Chris recently mentioned you on-air. How much attention do you want?
    As for the “rela world” you suggest I return to: which might that be? The one you inhabit? The one seething with aggression and contempt? The one where you, the besieged defender of the Western tradition, insult women (Peggy Sue, Potter)? Where you insult your host? The one where you make light of those same hosts losing their jobs? Is it the one where anyone you disagree with risks being branded as an anti-Semite? Or is it some nightmarish multi-verse comprising all those and more?
    If you mean the world fraught with Western-Muslim tensions, I live there too, as was plain from my previous post. I’ve spent most of my life abroad; for the last 15 years in various European cities, occassionally in the “Arab” districts. I heard two of the blasts in Paris in ’94. I’ve had my share of bad encounters with Muslims; however — and I don’t want to turn this into a Johnny Cash song — I’ve also been shot at by white people, aggressed by black people, robbed by Hispanics, wronged by women, etc. In many instances the reason was simple: I’m white and I’m American. I dislike the collective patriotic “we, ” but in the “rela world” you allude to, we Americans are an object of almost universal loathing. And with good reason. Come and see for yourself. As Conrad Hilton said, be my guest. We have an extra bed and you’re welcome to it (seriously). In the meantime, please leave off insulting razib, one of the brighter, saner people to have come this way in a while.
    I was reading Snow when Pamuk’s prize was announced. I’ll let you know what I make of it.

22. David Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 3:17 pm

    Hurley, JDyer, everyone:

    This is a really interesting thread for a lot of interesting reasons. Let’s get back to the meat of this show, and this thread — “Turkishness,” forgiveness, the weight of history, the place for literature, the East and the West. and more — and leave personal attacks off the table. We like deleting posts less than you like being deleted.

23. metin Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 3:58 pm

    We can probably resolve all of the existing problems discussed above if the Turks elect Orhan Pamuk as their next President (a la Václav Havel of the Czech Republic.)

    Then, after he steps down, he can write a ‘better’ book (and of literary value) than some of the ex-Presidents here in the US.

    Who knows, he might even get the Nobel Peace Prize for that.

24. hurley Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 4:12 pm

    David, I criticize ROS for deleting jdyer’s posts, and you respond by threatening to delete mine. Now here’s an issue the two indicted felons might get together on, if the matter anti-matter collision doesn’t destroy the universe first. You can source every implied criticism of jdyer that I made to something he’s written. And you can source every sharp comment I’ve made elsewhere vv jdyer to a needlessly aggressive, not to say slanderous, statement he’s made — usually atacking, needlesly, other people on this site, you at ROS included. I don’t want to set myself up as the Catcher in the ROS (Old Nick does a better job of that, glory be to him), but you have to recognize just how brutal and intimidating the atmosphere is on occasion. And I think I’m safe in saying, it’s not my fault. No wonder so few people participate in these discussions. It’s not your fault, either.
    Our exchange on this thread was initiated by an intemperate — “intemperate,” I say, doubling back on myself in yogic penance — word on my part, but what’s that between friends? My initial message had everything to do with Turkey, and he responded, and I responded, and so forth and so on. And then I invited him to stay at my house. What more do you want?
    You make a big mistake in deleting jdyer’s messages. He’s smart, informed, and has a lot to offer, destructive to the conversation as he can be. I wince whenever I see one of his messages cancelled. Please don’t do it. And if you delete mine we may no longer be friends.

25. David Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 4:43 pm

    Hurley,

    I actually think that we here at ROS err in deleting too few posts, not too many. That’s what we’ve heard from the community — certainly much more so than we’ve heard complaints of not being laissez faire enough.

    You wrote: “You have to recognize just how brutal and intimidating the atmosphere is on occasion. And I think I’m safe in saying, it’s not my fault. No wonder so few people participate in these discussions. It’s not your fault, either.”

    I think you’re right about the first parts and wrong about the last. It IS our fault if our commenters create a “brutal and intimidating” atmosphere and we do nothing to stop it.

    Anyway, in this case I came in and — without deleting a comment — tried to diffuse the thread and bring it back to matters of substance. I really meant it when I wrote that “We like deleting posts less than you like being deleted.” I realize that it has a bit of a disingenuous “This is going to hurt me more than it’s going to hurt you” ring to it, but it’s true: I hate getting in the way of this site’s discourse. The only times I — and the rest of us here — will do so are when that discourse is no longer civil and productive.

26. Global Voices Online » Blog Archive » Turkey: OpenSource Radio Discussion on Turkey Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 5:28 pm

    [...] Open Source Radio will be having a dialouge on their show tonight about recent events in Turkey with the awarding of the Nobel Prize for Literature to Turkish author Orh [...]

27. hurley Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 5:34 pm

    Sweet reasonableness turneth away not very much unreason.

    David, You shouldn’t censor people, punto — me, jdyer, or anyone else. That’s a basic Voltairian principle I’m uncomfortable even having to defend. Apart from everything else, you don’t learn that way, except the spurious utility of stopping your ears. This is “Open” Source, no? Jdyer is often offensive, as some of us are no doubt to him, but all concerned have the option of scrolling past.
    As for the community’s calls for censorship, I haven’t seen that many, in the context of your tens of thousands of listeners. People get offended or angry (I do), and they get on with it, their anger sometimes spurring them to write a message, or not.
    Far from being a spurious distraction, free speech-censorship an important aspect of this particular show.
    Now let’s talk Turkey.
    Thanks in advance

28. razib Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 7:11 pm

    but all concerned have the option of scrolling past

    you know, they said the same about USENET….

29. jdyer Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 7:17 pm

    hurley Says:

    October 19th, 2006 at 3:05 pm

    “jdyer: Like most bullies, you’re remarkably thin-skinned. A single harsh word — after all the many you’ve directed at people here — and you wail that you’ve been “attacked.””

    Hurley bullies come in all different shape and sizes and sometime even call those they don’t agree with bullies.

    I am not thin skinned, and I don’t mind and honest donnybrook, but I do resent being insulted by people who then pretend that it was just “a single harsh word.”

    Still, since this is a show about literature I will hold my fire.

    Let’s just sit back and enjoy the show.

30. metin Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 7:23 pm

    This notion of, as Ms. Zaman implied, Turks not wanting to be on par with Hitler if in fact genocide allegations are true, is not necessarily a valid reason not to open up discussions about genocide. Turkey should strive to be more like Germany, having rid itself of the Hitler era and survived. And I don’t mean by exporting low-wage earning immigrants to Germany either.

    We need to open the books, and if what we find fits the description of what everyone’s understanding of genocide is, then we have to be ready to face the consequences. I have accepted that reality!

    And it is not appropriate to deny the research into this issue because of this uncertainty, or for the reason Ms. Zaman stated in her ‘Hitler’ association.

31. Potter Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 7:28 pm

    Hurley can we talk here? I have answered you. http://www.radioopensource.org/flagging-comments/

    David thank you. And Hurley thank you.

32. metin Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 7:32 pm

    I wonder if the ‘big picture’ reason that Ottoman Empire converted to The Republic of Turkey involves a ‘cover-up’ of records that no one wanted to make public and hoped would be lost in transition?

    And why is Turkey not pressing for ‘genocide’ claims against Armenians if the Turks claim the reverse is also true when asked for an explanation of the genocide question?

33. Deborah Ann Dilley Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 7:49 pm

    I think that there is a lot here not being said about the nature of Turkish identity. A nationalist identity is a very Western ideal and the change from Ottoman ideals of identity (belonging to your clan, tribe, etc. first and your state second) to the more western view of Turkish nationalism (you are a Turk first and foremost as it is your national identity) is really at the heart of alot of the conflicts in Turkey. For example, Kurds want to see themselves as Kurds first and foremost. By not imbracing their Turkish nationality (not ethnicity), they are considered—according to the Turkish constitution as being against the state.

34. metin Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 7:55 pm

    I agree with you Deborah. That is a point that is missing here although one of the guests faintly touched on it.

    Yet it’s become fashionable to blame others for one’s shortcomings. Except when the ‘other’ is really you. The modern Turks are quick to blame the guilt of the Armenian ‘genocide’ and other issues on the Ottoman Empire or as a consequence of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

    Yet the Turks are first in line when the ‘great’ Ottomans have achieved many ‘well-received’ successes.

    I think, once again, the Turks need to accept the good with the bad, and sometimes even the ugly.

    By the way, did I hear one of the guests use the ‘F’ word in her plea to get off the phone (undoubtedly an off-air remark) because I assume she wasn’t happy with what she was hearing (as another guest was speaking?)

    And . . . did I miss ANY discussion re: Pamuk and his literary works? What a shame!

35. Deborah Ann Dilley Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 7:55 pm

    And since I wasn’t allowed to reply to the rest of the conversation on air….I didn’t say that the Kurdish blogosphere isn’t discussing Turkey’s past or their involvement in the Armenian genocide. I said that the Kurdish blogosphere isn’t talking about the new events. However the Kurdish blogosphere is very very open to their involvement in the Genocide and are on extrememly good relations with the Armenians because they have admitted their involvement.

36. jdyer Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 8:40 pm

    I believe that the killings of over a million Armenians was a tragedy comparably to the genocides in Biafra, Cambodia, Rwanda, and the ongoing horros in Darfur.

    It would be best for the Turks to allow open discussion of the murders in the press and I commend Pamuk for bringin up in public.

37. olc Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 9:24 pm

    what kind of show is this??, i cannot believe it, where is being objective, being scientific and giving opposite sides equal time to discuss and argue, it was an one sided show, not even a single REAL historian talking about the massacres of both sides, one professor of Sociology who cannot even give a single evidence about genocide, and knows better than anyone that millions of Turks were killed during WW1.

    I think she should read some real historians books and learn about it.
    just ask the relationship of Russians and Armenians and french during WW1, You will learn some history behind these events, also some post was saying Turks were barbarians before islam etc… that shows you the mentality of some people, they are like Hitler talking about Jews..

    Just read Bernand Lewis Professor of Near Eastern History Princeton ( others signed this too)

    “As for the charge of “genocide,” no signatory of this statement wishes to minimize the scope of Armenian suffering. We are likewise cognizant that it cannot be viewed as separate from the suffering experienced by the Muslim inhabitants of the region. The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World WW1…….. “

38. olc Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 9:33 pm

    idyer says “It would be best for the Turks to allow open discussion of the murders in the press and I commend Pamuk for bringin up in public.”

    Are you reading the news lately?? Armenians are the ones that want to ban FREE SPEECH, THOUGHT, DISCUSSION. French are the same. Turkish government offered to open Ottoman archives to historians from both sides and Neutral countries to look into these so called “genocide” you know what happen?? Armenia refused to join. who is running from research. How about discussion of Turks who were killed during ww1? Do you even hear about it? none. for some, if it is muslims, turks, or africans, it does not matter, they can be killed, massacred and no one talks about it. Where is real morality? this Fatma Muge Gocek, why she never talks about the Turks being killed, massacred in the balkan wars, ww1?
    she is not even a real historian.
    or just read history of ISLAND OF CRETE, there were more than 200000 turks on that island, read what happen to them, you will learn.

39. olc Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 9:40 pm

    Deborah Ann Dilley, where is your evidence since you use genocide all the time??
    have your heard about VAN and what happened to turkish residents there?? how about french and armenians legion? what they did in the south of turkey? you can research and read it.

    British occupied Istanbul 3 years and they could not come up with a single evidence about genocide and they had to release 150 high officials of ottomans,

    check the British Archives PRO—F. 0. 371/6500/ E.3552.

    “There are in hands of Majesty’s government at Malta a number of Turks arrested for alleged complicity in the Armenian massacres. There are considerable difficulty in establishing proofs of guilt. Please ascertain if the United States government is in possession of any evidence that would be of value for the purpose of prosecution.”

    BritishArchives. PRO—F. 0. 371/
    6500/ E.3552, Curzon to Geddes
    Telegram No 176, dated March 31,
    1921.

    read books from these 2 real historians, they say there was no genocide. ( many more, but i cannot list it all here)

    BERNARD LEWIS Professor of Near Eastern History Princeton
    STANFORD SHAW Professor of History University of California

40. olc Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 9:43 pm

    By the way, the so called genocide happened 1915. Turkish republic was created 1923. so even we believe there was genocide, it is not any responsiblity of Turkish republic.

    Also no one in turkey denies there were massacres, but it was two sides doing this. so let’s make this clear.

41. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 10:16 pm

    Amidst all the hysteria, hyperbole and handwringing regarding the passage of the bill outlawing the denial of the Armenian Genocide by France’s National Assembly, we would just state the following:

    1) Europe and Turkey will continue “Business As Usual” regardless of this legislation. In fact, Europe – Turkish cooperation started before the Armenian Genocide and has continued unabated since then. The Treaty of Lausanne conveniently ignored the genocide and the promises the Europeans had made to the Armenians, paving the way for a new era of Turkish-European economic and military cooperation. Turkish cries of threats and blockades regarding Europe and the E.U. over this bill are laughable and hollow bravado.

    2) All those who argue that this legislation somehow restricts “Freedom of Speech” are really reaching for straws. If they wish to debate the historical reality of the Armenian Genocide let them bring their case to the appropriate forum. No one is preventing them from doing so!!

    3) Regarding the argument that this legislation thwarts reconciliation between the Turkish state and its people, on the one hand, and Armenians on the other, we say, ” Reconciliation can only begin with a recognition of historical reality – something the Turkish state and its propaganda machine have avoided for the past 90 years. ” Unfortunately, it appears that Turkey has been dragged, kicking and screaming, to even merely recognize that the issue of the genocide exists till today.

    4) Armenians are not “obsessed” with the recognition of the genocide as some commentators have blithely noted. Many argue that the events of 1915 should be “filed away” and treated as an unfortunate tragedy that took place in the distant past. Such a convenient treatment of the 20th century’s first genocide and its aftermath is disgraceful and must not be tolerated. When Armenian Genocide deniers rear their ugly head, they must be countered and exposed as such.

    5) The fallout over this issue continues to highlight the contradictions inherent regarding the politics of both Europe and Turkey. Chirac opens his mouth in Yerevan one day and the next day, back in Paris, he opines to the contrary. The European Union, speaks of advancing democracy and justice, but backs down when the defense of these issue seemingly threaten Turkey’s accession talks. Turkey rants on and on about how “freedom of speech” in France has been dealt a blow with this legislation but conveniently ignores its own track record on the same topic. Such hypocrisy knows no bounds….

    Amidst all the rhetoric and wrangling surrounding this issue, Armenians have precious little to lose. We continue to watch the unfolding of this latest episode in the political manipulation of the Armenian Genocide with a certain degree of remorse, but also of satisfaction. Turkey, France and the rest of Europe, only have themselves to blame for the current imbroglio. The 1915 Genocide remains an unresolved issue some 90 years later. Had Europe and Turkey seen fit to address this crime against humanity soon after it was committed, they would not find themselves in the predicament from which they are attempting to extricate themselves today.

42. Old Nick Says:
    October 19th, 2006 at 10:49 pm

    Sassna Dzrer, what, in you opinion, could ‘resolve’ the 1915 genocide? Admission, of course, must come first. But then what? Would an apology by the head of state of the Republic of Turkey suffice?

    I have no agenda in asking this. I am merely curious. (See my post above, at 12:43 PM, Oct.19th. And the show has not yet aired in my listening area, so I don’t know if my questions have already been addressed.)

43. Murat Altinbasak Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 12:17 am

    I’ve listened to the recorded program and I regret that I wasn’t more assertive of my positions. Seems I didn’t permit the fire in my belly to reach my tongue. Staying in control and avoiding long-winded diatribes of things which everyone’s already heard, seemed more important.
    Dr. Gocek was given an inordinate amount of airtime, and it was surprising (and disappointing) that Chris didn’t cut into her dialogue more often..
    Another regret is that I didn’t engage her directly; I let Chris be the captain, as seemed appropriate… In the end, it’s clear that Dr. Gocek was given the same amount of time as the rest of us put together.
    Let’s remember that a program centered on this topic is a rare event, this being perhaps the first of many future discussions. To all of those who are disappointed by the program’s neglect of Orhan Pamuk’s work and recent achievement, I share your regret.
    Many thanks to Radio Open Source for giving me a chance to be heard.

44. Old Nick Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 12:24 am

    Murat: please feel free to discuss Pamuk right here, on this thread. Tell us whatever you like about his works. Give us recommendations, and appreciations too.

    True, it won’t be aired, but it will be read by many thousands of reasonably intellectually minded people. And we will be grateful (I promise).

45. Murat Altinbasak Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:00 am

    Old Nick: Like yourself, tonight I had hoped to be on the receiving end of information about Pamuk and his books, as I am no maven on the subjects myself. The producer’s choice of guests was not did not help steer the dialogue towards literature. Presently I am reading SNOW and find myself wondering how much of it is lost in translation. So I intend to buy the Turkish version and compare. THEN I may have something to contribute. Until then, I am limited to opining my feelings about Pamuk- Turkishness- Article 301- the Nobel Prize- and the French genocide bill. Here is a link to a thread which I believe you will enjoy sinking your teeth into:
    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/culturevulture/archives/2006/10/12/orhan_pamuk_win.html

46. bakin_1998 Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:15 am

    It is interesting to me that recently the world has taken a keen interest on the so called Armenian genocide in 1915. I am not a historian myself and I would want to have more open and frank discussion about what happened.

    However, I am more curious about why the focus is on Turkey recently and not for example what happened to native indians in the USA or the Algerian occupation of france and consequent massacres, and countless other examples around the world. I suspect it is because there isn’t a strong Native Indian or an Algerian lobby around the world to push these issues. Also, the countries on the other side of these issues are 1st world powers. Interesting isn’t it?

47. metin Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:38 am

    The bottom line actually is that all this attention is positive for Turkey. I am hopeful that given the climate of pro-Turkishness, the real Turkey will stand up and do the right thing. Don’t expect any changes overnight, but there are a lot more people like Pamuk in Turkey who are discounted as sharing the ‘official’ position of Turkey. It is so only because of the ‘respect’ of government by the people as expected in a Republic. In reality, they haven’t realized their own position yet and are waiting for the opportune moment to come out of the closet so to speak.

    Maybe the self-examination of Turkey would reveal the facing of the debate between ‘democracy’ and ‘republic’ form of governing. In a Republic, the sovereignty resides in the people themselves, whether one or many. In a Democracy, the majority rules. (51% decides the fate of the 49%, and in some cases a true plurality may not even be 51% as is usually the case in counting the votes actually cast.) Also in a Democracy, the sovereignty is not divided to smaller units such as individual citizens.

    That is why the resrictions on freedoms of expression receives its due criticism. Besides, you can’t legislate stupidity.

48. PietVA Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 5:00 am

    How does a country building up its army because of bizarre paranoia PROVE that there is an anti-Turkey attitude in the rest of the , hell, universe? That was the pathetic attempt of some “American Turk” on the air to defend the irrational censorship and legalized persecution of anyone daring to question the appropriateness of Turkey’s genocide of the Armenians. Does any amount of self-pity justify either?

    BTW, did anyone hear the woman letting go with some “get me off the f-ing ” something here? Weird.

49. metin Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 8:40 am

    The dumbfounded notion of a paranoia and conspiracy theories are what enables the ‘administering’ of status quo-inducing when it comes to rationale and common sense.

    Turkey needs to wake up and realize its potential, and reverse its insecurities. As I said before, instead of worrying about being compared to Hitler, Turkey should worry about becoming more like Germany. And this goes for both sides. The Armenians instead chose to side with the French at all costs, even if it meant convincing the French to restrict freedom of expression, the very same thing they accuse Turkey.

    Yes. I did hear the same ‘F’ word in her attempt to get off the phone. I believe this is the ‘great sociologist’ who probably felt ‘lowly’ to share the spotlight with people beneath her and her position. I’ve already heard (from a reliable source) she dismisses the Turkish-American bloggers as a ‘know-nothing’ crowd anyway. She obviosly hasn’t subscribed to mine. How else can one explain this inferiority complex.

50. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 10:14 am

    April 24, 2006

    View PDF of document

    HUMAN RIGHTS ASSOCIATION ISTANBUL BRANCH
    PRESS RELEASE

    24th April 2006

    Today, 24th of April, is worldwide recognised as the date signifying the Armenian Genocide. Only in Turkey it indicates a taboo. The Turkish state mobilises all its resources to deny the meaning of this date.

    At diplomatic platforms Turkish officials and their advocates claim that they recognise the “big tragedy” and they only object to its being named as a “Genocide”. That’s not true. At every occasion in Turkey not only the Armenian Genocide, but also the great agony of the Armenian people is denied and attempts are made to justify the genocide.

    It was only last month that during a Symposium on the Armenian-Turkish relations the denialist official theses were voiced one after another, offending the Armenians in Turkey and elsewhere and insulting the memory of their grandparents. Lies were told in the name of “science”., like “Armenians have always sold their masters”, “deportation was a means of crisis management”, “death toll of deportation is comparable to the death toll of flu epidemic in England that time”, “there is no other people as noble as the Turkish nation in the world, it is impossible for them to commit a genocide”, and many more, humiliating a people who was one of the most advanced in science, art, literature, and in all other aspects.

    Denial is an constituant part of the genocide itself and results in the continuation of the genocide. Denial of genocide is a human rights violation in itself. It deprives individuals the right to mourn for their ancestors, for the ethnic cleansing of a nation, the annihilation of people of all ages, all professions, all social sections, women, men, children, babies, grandparents alike just because they were Armenians regardless of their political background or conviction. Perhaps the most important of all, it is the refusal of making a solemn, formal commitment and say “NEVER AGAIN”.

    Turkey has made hardly any progress in the field of co-existence, democracy, human rights and putting an end to militarism since the time of the Union and Progress Committee. Annihilation and denial had been and continues today to be the only means to solve the problem. Villages evacuated and put on fire and forced displacements are still the manifestation of the same habit of “social engineering”. There has always been bloodshed in the homeland of Armenians after 1915. Unsolved murders, disappearances under custody, rapes and arrests en masse during the 1990’s were no surprise, given the ongoing state tradition lacking any culture of repentance for past crimes against humanity.

    Similarly the removal of a public prosecutor and banning him from profession just for taking the courage to mention an accusation against the military, a very recent incident, is the manifestation of an old habit of punishing anybody who dares to voice any objection to the army. And today’s ongoing military build up of some 250,000 troops in the southeast of Turkey is the proof of a mindset who is unable to develop any solution to the Kurdish question other than armed suppresion.

    Turkey will not be able to take even one step forward without putting an end to the continuity of the Progress and Union manner of ruling. No human rights violation can be stopped in Turkey and there will be no hope of breaking the vicious circle of Kurdish uprisings and their bloody suppression unless the Turkish state agree to create an environment where public homage is paid to genocide victims, where the sufferings of their grandchildren is shared and the genocide is recognised.

    Today we, as the human rights defenders, would like to address all Armenians in Turkey and elsewhere in the world and tell them “we want to share the pain in your hearts and bow down before the memory of your lost ones. They are also our losses. Our struggle for human rights in Turkey, is at the same time our mourning for our common losses and a homage paid to the genocide victims”.

51. metin Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 11:07 am

    Sassna: I can appreciate your ‘personal’ comments about your beliefs and your freedoms to publish them on various weblogs, including mine (TalkTurkey.) However, posting a ‘press release,’ under another disguised name, on my blog, without any preface, earns you a quick ‘delete’ response from me. There are hundreds of press releases on both sides about this issue. And I choose to allow personal commentaries on my blog, so I take the opportunity here to respond to you, while exercising the same right France has passed in its legislature by restricting the freedom of expression with the ‘when it applies to press releases’ clause.

52. Murat Altinbasak Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 11:16 am

    Metin, my blog received the same treatment today.
    When there is no comment moderation, people tend to exploit it.

53. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:16 pm

    April 22, 1981

    “Like the genocide of the Armenians before it, and the genocide of the Cambodians which followed it — and like too many other such persecutions of too many other peoples — the lessons of the Holocaust must never be forgotten.”

    ——————————————————————————–

    Proclamation 4838 of April 22, 1981

    Days of Remembrance of Victims of the Holocaust

    by the President of the United States of America

    A Proclamation

    The Congress of the United States established the United States Holocaust Memorial Council to create a living memorial to the victims of the Nazi Holocaust. Its purpose: So mankind will never lose memory of that terrible moment in time when the awful specter of death camps stained the history of our world.

    When America and its allies liberated those haunting places of terror and sick destructiveness, the world came to a vivid and tragic understanding of the evil it faced in those years of the Second World War. Each of those names — Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Dachau, Treblinka and so many others — became synonymous with horror.

    The millions of death, the gas chambers, the inhuman crematoria, and the thousands of people who somehow survived with lifetime scars are all now part of the conscience of history. Forever must we remember just how precious is civilization, how important is liberty, and how heroic is the human spirit.

    Like the genocide of the Armenians before it, and the genocide of the Cambodians which followed it — and like too many other such persecutions of too many other peoples — the lessons of the Holocaust must never be forgotten.

    As part of its mandate, the Holocaust Memorial Council has been directed to designate annual Day of Remembrance as a national, civic commemoration of the Holocaust, and to encourage and sponsor appropriate observances throughout the United States. This year, the national Days of Remembrance will be observed on April 26 through May 3.

    NOW, THEREFORE, I, RONALD REAGAN, President of the United States of America, do hereby ask the people of the United States to observe this solemn anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi death camps, with appropriate study, prayers and commemoration, as a tribute to the spirit of freedom and justice which Americans fought so hard and well to preserve.

    IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 22nd day of April, in the year of our Lord Nineteen hundred and eight-one, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and fifth.

    Ronald Reagan

    ___________________________________________________________________________–

    It would appear that the former U.S. President Ronald Reagan, no foe of Turkey , concluded that the events of 1915 constitute GENOCIDE and should be recognized as such!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

54. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:19 pm

    Murat, yes I was thinking the same, you have not said anything on that program, it was shocking, and diappointing, and they only put you on 15 min, rest was for moderator and Associate Professor of Sociology, gocek. what is funny is, both of them were agreeing with eact other and supporting each other, I mean come on!! wht kind of radio show is this, are you going to challenge points, make counter points and try to discuss and test this Professor’s ideas, She is not even a historian and she does not even bring a single evidence of genocide.

    All they want is Turkey to admit there was a genocide and not discuss about it, for them it happened, so you cannot challenge it, discuss it, counter it. Ban freedom of speech, thought, and facts and live happily ever after. what a joke. this show proved that there is a huge bias against Turkey. They cannot even say that Turks were killed also, that shows you their morality.

    for them, Turks being killed does not matter including professor.

    Just read Bernand Lewis Professor of Near Eastern History Princeton ( others signed this too)

    “As for the charge of “genocide,” no signatory of this statement wishes to minimize the scope of Armenian suffering. We are likewise cognizant that it cannot be viewed as separate from the suffering experienced by the Muslim inhabitants of the region. The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World WW1…….. “

55. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:22 pm

    Sorry Metin and Murat…

    I would have thought that the above proclamation of Turkey’s Human Rights Association RECOGNIZING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE might be used by all genocide deniers as proof that things are changing for the better in Turkey.

    Could you tell me how many members of the Human Right Association were detained after thie proclamation became public????

56. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:23 pm

    Why are you putting politicians ideas about this so called fake genocide?? they want VOTES, that is why they do this. If we are going to learn facts about history from Politicians then we are in trouble.

    why don’t you read some historians like BERNARD LEWIS Professor of Near Eastern History Princeton, STANFORD SHAW Professor of History University of California who say it was not a genocide,

57. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:28 pm

    for you, yes, you want Turkey to admit genocide, so it is changing for the better. why then Armenia refused to join in a group of historians from both countries and also neutral countires to research Ottoman archives?? is it because they are not after truth?

    there was massacres on both sides. if it really was a genocide why the armenians living in the west of turkey were not touched?? just this fact would make genocide claim false. if you go to a court and sue turkey, Court would throw out the case just beacause of this fact. ( definition of genocide as defined)

58. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:29 pm

    LEBANON PARLIAMENT RESOLUTION

    May 11, 2000

    On the occasion of the 85th anniversary of massacres perpetrated by the Ottoman authorities in the year 1915, as a result of which 1.5 million Armenians fell victim, the Lebanese Chamber of Deputies recognizes and condemns the genocide perpetrated against the Armenian people and expresses its complete solidarity with demands of its Armenian citizens. Furthermore, it believes that the international recognition of this genocide is a necessary condition for the prevention of similar crimes that may occur in the future.

59. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:30 pm

    Reagan, you know what he did in latin america?? just read it. please!!

60. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:31 pm

    still putting parliament, politicians decisions. you cannot put a single scientific evidence on the table. you might as well put 15 others

61. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:32 pm

    ust read Bernand Lewis Professor of Near Eastern History Princeton ( others signed this too)

    “As for the charge of “genocide,” no signatory of this statement wishes to minimize the scope of Armenian suffering. We are likewise cognizant that it cannot be viewed as separate from the suffering experienced by the Muslim inhabitants of the region. The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World WW1…….. “

62. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:38 pm

    HENRY MORGENTHAU: U.S. Ambassador to Ottoman Empire 1913-1916
    ___________________________________________________________________________

    “When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact.”

    “Practically all of them were atheists, with no more respect for Mohammedanism than for Christianity, and with them the one motive was cold-blooded, calculating state policy.”

    ——————————————————————————–

    One day I was discussing these proceedings with a responsible Turkish official, who was describing the tortures inflicted. He made no secret of the fact that the Government had instigated them, and, like all Turks of the official classes, he enthusiastically approved this treatment of the detested race. This official told me that all these details were matters of nightly discussion at the headquarters of the Union and Progress Committee. Each new method of inflicting pain was hailed as a splendid discovery, and the regular attendants were constantly ransacking their brains in the effort to devise some new torment. He told me that they even delved into the records of the Spanish Inquisition and other historic institutions of torture and adopted all the suggestions found there. He did not tell me who carried off the prize in this gruesome competition, but common reputation through Armenia gave a preeminent infamy to Djevdet Bey, the Vali of Van, whose activities in that section I have already described. All through this country Djevdet was generally known as the “horseshoer of Bashkale” for this connoisseur in torture had invented what was perhaps the masterpiece of all — that of nailing horseshoes to the feet of his Armenian victims.

    Yet these happenings did not constitute what the newspapers of the time commonly referred to as the Armenian atrocities; they were merely the preparatory steps in the destruction of the race. The Young Turks displayed greater ingenuity than their predecessor, Abdul Hamid. The injunction of the deposed Sultan was merely “to kill, kill”, whereas the Turkish democracy hit upon an entirely new plan. Instead of massacring outright the Armenian race, they now decided to deport it. In the south and southeastern section of the Ottoman Empire lie the Syrian desert and the Mesopotamian valley. Though part of this area was once the scene of a flourishing civilization, for the last five centuries it has suffered the blight that becomes the lot of any country that is subjected to Turkish rule; and it is now a dreary, desolate waste, without cities and towns or life of any kind, populated only by a few wild and fanatical Bedouin tribes. Only the most industrious labour, expended through many years, could transform this desert into the abiding place of any considerable population. The Central Government now announced its intention of gathering the two million or more Armenians living in the several sections of the empire and transporting them to this desolate and inhospitable region. Had they undertaken such a deportation in good faith it would have represented the height of cruelty and injustice. As a matter of fact, the Turks never had the slightest idea of reestablishing the Armenians in this new country. They knew that the great majority would never reach their destination and that those who did would either die of thirst and starvation, or be murdered by the wild Mohammedan desert tribes. The real purpose of the deportation was robbery and destruction; it really represented a new methods of massacre. When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact.

    [paragraphs omitted]

    I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared with the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915. The slaughter of the Albigenses in the early part of the thirteenth century has always been regarded as one of the most pitiful events in history. In these outbursts of fanaticism about 60,000 people were killed. In the massacre of St. Bartholomew about 30,000 human beings lost their lives. The Sicilian Vespers, which has always figured as one of the most fiendish outbursts of this kind, caused the destruction of 8,000. Volumes have been written about the Spanish Inquisition under Torquemada, yet in the eighteen years of his administration only a little more that 8,000 heretics were done to death. Perhaps the one event in history that most resembles the Armenian deportations was the expulsion of the Jews from Spain by Ferdinand and Isabella. According to Prescott 160,000 were uprooted from their homes and scattered broadcast over Africa and Europe. Yet all these previous persecutions seem almost trivial when we compare them with the sufferings of the Armenians, in which at least 600,000 people were destroyed and perhaps as many as 1,000,000. And these earlier massacres when we compare them with the spirit that directed the Armenian atrocities, have one feature that we can almost describe as an excuse: they were the product of religious fanaticism and most of the men and women who instigated them sincerely believed that they were devoutly serving their Maker. Undoubtedly religious fanaticism was an impelling motive with the Turkish and Kurdish rabble who slew Armenians as a service to Allah, but the men who really conceived the crime had no such motive. Practically all of them were atheists, with no more respect for Mohammedanism than for Christianity, and with them the one motive was cold-blooded, calculating state policy.

    Henry Morgenthau, Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story (New York: Doubleday, Page & Co.: 1919), pp. 307-309, 321-323.

63. metin Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:41 pm

    Ronald Reagan was an actor before he became a politician, was a democrat before he became a republican, and probably was commenting about the ‘evil’ness of any genocide against any people before proclaiming Turkey as the guilty party for the Armenian genocide as you suggest.

    I am not denying the freedom of any human rights association to do as it pleases. In fact, I abhor the treatment of such by Turkey, or any other state. But it is ridiculously absurd to push for human rights when it serves one’s purpose and to restrict it when it doesn’t. Rather, my problem is with you (and your misrepresentation of facts,) within the context of your state of intellect.

    I hope the Armenian cause finds better representation than the French and those who misinform the public about the truth. I too would like the truth to come out no matter what the expense. However, I am all for trial before being found guilty. And like I said before, who knows, maybe a genocide of Turks at the hands of Armenians might even make its appearance in some press release.

    In the meantime, I am still awaiting an Armenian (or a Turk) commenting on Pamuk’s books.

64. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:42 pm

    So That Your Readers Know The Facts…..

    Both these so-called historians Shaw, Lewis, et al, are known to be in the pay of the Ankara regime….

    Genocide deniers have no where else to turn when they try to prove their case.

65. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:45 pm

    Right,

    And Reagan was in bed with the generals in Turkey , giving them millions in military aid to prop up the regime and letting them run amuck in Kurdistan..

    And even he recognised The Armenian Genocide……

66. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 1:56 pm

    WHITE HOUSE PROCLAMATION – 1998

    April 24, 1998 — Armenian Remembrance Day

    This year, as in the past, we join with Armenian-Americans throughout the nation in commemorating one of the saddest chapters in the history of this century, the deportations and massacres of a million and a half Armenians in the Ottoman Empire in the years 1915-1923.

    This painful event from the past also serves as a powerful lesson for the future: that man’s inhumanity to man must not be tolerated, and that evil cannot conquer. The Armenian people have endured, surviving the ravages of two World Wars and seven decades of Soviet rule. Throughout the world, and especially in this country, Armenians have contributed to the material, intellectual and spiritual lives of their adopted homes. Today’s Armenians are building a free and independent nation that stands as a living tribute to all those who died.

    The United States will continue working to preserve a free Armenia in a peaceful, stable and prosperous Caucasus region. In that spirit, I extend to all Armenians my best wishes on Remembrance Day in the fervent hope that those who died will never be forgotten.

    Bill Clinton

67. Murat Altinbasak Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 2:15 pm

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68. Murat Altinbasak Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 2:23 pm

    Please use your own words to discuss matters, in lieu of cutting and pasting dated publications and quotations.
    I don’t think that this thread should be used as a podium for the spread of boiler-plate anti-Turkish propaganda. At least use your own words. My three year old son knows how to cut and paste..

69. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 4:19 pm

    you can say whatever. There was no genocide, you can get the whole world politicians say this, HISTORY knows the FACTS. and people who does a little research how armenians sided with Russians and French and killed innocent civilians in turkey then got deported for their crimes. i know it is hard to understand this since their whole life based on hate and this fake genocide, but you have to question everything they say. They have been caught several times lying.
    Bernand Lewis is not in the pocket of anyone, ask any historian, he is a respected scholar unlike your sources, like politicians

    anyone who says there was no genocide always becomes a lier, in the pocket of turkish government, please, have a little sense. I say who does not know the history of this region and time, read it and you will see how armenians ( not all) rised up and joined the russians against their countrymen and try to grap land. and massacred civilians. just read history book that are OBJECTIVE, not historians with armenians last names.

70. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 4:30 pm

    Just read this: how they want to shut people up. intimidation, bombings and killing diplomats which they killed more than 70 innocent diplomat during 1970s.

    June 9, 1981 – Geneva, Switzerland: An Armenian gunman assassinates Turkish Consulate Secretary, Mehmet Savas Yerguz, as he is leaving his office. Swiss authorities apprehend Mardiros Jamgotchian.

    September 24, 1981 – Paris, France: Four Armenian gunmen seize the Turkish Consulate, taking 56 people hostage for 16 hours. During the siege, Armenian gunman Kevork Guzelian shoots and seriously wounds Consul Kaya Inal and a Turkish security officer, Mr. Cemal Ozen.

    Source: Stanford J Shaw & Ezel Kural Shaw, History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume IIl ?: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975). (London, Cambridge University Press 1977).

    Professor Shaw’s home in Los Angeles was BOMBED by Armenians on October 4, 1977 for writing this history that deviated from the Armenians’ script.

    Leaving Erivan on April 28, 1915, only a day after the deportation orders had been issued in Istanbul and long before news of them could have reached the least, (Armenian volunteers) reached Van on May 14 and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake.

71. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 4:36 pm

    I hope I am putting a little question in the people’s mind and so they can research and learn about these event deeply and not believe what people tell them. There is both sides to History. Always question facts, information and ask where it is coming from. That is all people should want.

    France and its friends want to shut debate, ban free speech, freedom of thought. At the end of the day Freedom will will. and People will know the facts.

    Even this radio program banned free speech by not having people who had opposite ideas and counter points. It was an one sided show for themselves to satify themselves and make Naive people believe their lies. You have probably succeeded in this, but at least if one person sees these posts and questions the lies. then I am happy. shame on this program for this kind of program.

72. Murat Altinbasak Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 5:05 pm

    On such delicate matters, research should be conducted independently, using sources which are free of any vested interest in the popular sentiment.
    It is my belief that the most often ignored chapter of history is the complicity of Armenian Turks, the French and the Russians in the attempted land-grabbing and wars against the emerging Turkish Republic. The white noise created by the Armenian lobby makes it difficult to discern the fact that Armenians of the time had much blood on their hands. No participant of the Turkish War of Independence was spared from the horrific death toll, no participant is as pure as snow, and no participant is free of culpability.
    Is it time to set forth a new idea?
    With so much blood spilled on so many sides, is it perhaps more fitting to recognize something we call the “Anatolian Genocide”? Remove the ethnicity of this issue. Can any Jew imagine calling the “Jewish Holocaust” something like the “Polish Holocaust”? Not likely, because Polish Jews are only one part of a much larger whole. For anyone who studies the history of WW1 casualties for themselves, the true colors of those who grieve only for Armenians will be made clear: racist.

73. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 5:49 pm

    Check It Out All You Genocide Deniers
    _________________________________________________________________________

    March 7, 2000

    View image of document

    126 HOLOCAUST SCHOLARS AFFIRM THE INCONTESTABLE FACT OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND URGE WESTERN DEMOCRACIES TO OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZE IT

    At the Thirtieth Anniversary of the Scholars’ Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches Convening at St. Joseph University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, March 3-7, 2000, one hundred twenty-six Holocaust Scholars, holders of Academic Chairs and Directors of Holocaust Research and Studies Centers, participants of the Conference, signed a statement affirming that the World War I Armenian Genocide is an incontestable historical fact and accordingly urge the governments of Western democracies to likewise recognize it as such. The petitioners, among whom is Nobel Laureate for Peace Elie Wiesel, who was the keynote speaker at the conference, also asked the Western Democracies to urge the Government and Parliament of Turkey to finally come to terms with a dark chapter of Ottoman-Turkish history and to recognize the Armenian Genocide. This would provide an invaluable impetus to the process of the democratization of Turkey.

    Below is a partial list of the signatories:

    Prof. Yehuda Bauer
    Distinguished Professor
    Hebrew University
    Director, The International Institute of Holocaust Research
    Yad Vashem, Jerusalem

    Prof. Israel Charny, Director
    Institute of the Holocaust and Genocide, Jerusalem
    Professor at the Hebrew University,
    Editor-in-Chief of The Encyclopedia of Genocide

    Prof. Ward Churchill
    Ethnic Studies
    The University of Colorado, Boulder

    Prof. Stephen Feinstein, Director
    Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies
    University of Minnesota

    Prof. Saul Friedman, Director
    Holocaust and Jewish Studies
    Youngston State University, Ohio

    Prof. Edward Gaffney
    Valparaiso University Law School

    Prof. Zev Garber
    Los Angeles Valley College

    Prof. Dorota Glowacka
    University of King’s Collage
    Halifax, Nova Scotia

    Dr. Irving Greenberg, President
    Jewish Life Network

    Prof. Herbert Hirsch
    Virginia Commonwealth University

    Prof. Irving L. Horowitz
    Hannah Arendt Distinguished Professor
    Rutgers University, NJ

    Rabbi Dr. Steve Jacobs
    Temple Sinai Shalom
    Huntsville, Alabama
    Associate Editor of The Encyclopedia of Genocide

    Prof. Steven Katz
    Distinguish Professor
    Director, Center for Judaic Studies
    Boston University
    Prof. Richard Libowitz
    Temple University

    Dr. Marcia Littell
    Stockton College
    Exec. Director, Scholars’ Conference
    On the Holocaust and the Churches

    Franklin Littell
    Emeritus Professor
    Temple University

    Prof. Hubert G. Locke
    Washington University
    Co-founder of the Annual Scholar’s Conference
    On the Holocaust and the Churches

    Dr. Elizabeth Maxwell
    Executive Director of the International Scholarly
    Conference on the Holocaust, London, England

    Prof. Erik Markusen
    Southwest State University, MN

    Prof. Saul Mendlowitz
    Dag Hammerskjold Distinguished Professor
    of International Law
    Rutgers University

    Prof. Jack Needle, Director
    Center for Holocaust Studies
    Brookdale Community College
    Lincroft, NJ

    Dr. Philip Rosen, Director
    Holocaust Education Center of the Delaware Valley

    Prof. Alan S, Rosenbaum
    Dept. of Philosophy
    Cleveland State University

    William L. Shulman, President
    Association of Holocaust Organizations City University of New York

    Prof. Samuel Totten
    The University of Arkansas
    Assoc. Editor of The Encyclopedia of Genocide

    Prof. Elie Wiesel
    Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities
    Boston University
    Founding Chairman of the United States
    Holocaust Memorial Council
    Nobel Laureate for Peace

    I hereby declare that the originals of these one hundred and twenty-six signatories are on file in my office. All affiliations supplied are for identification purposes only.

    Dr. Stephen Feinstein, Director,
    Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies
    University of Minnesota

74. Sassna Dzrer Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 5:54 pm

    HERE’S SOME MORE TO CHEW ON….
    _________________________________________________________________________

    ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS

    June 13, 1997

    Resolution

    That this assembly of the Association of Genocide Scholars in its conference held in Montreal, June 11-13, 1997, reaffirms that the mass murder of Armenians in Turkey in 1915 is a case of genocide which conforms to the statutes of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. It further condemns the denial of the Armenian Genocide by the Turkish government and its official and unofficial agents and supporters.

75. Murat Altinbasak Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 6:15 pm

    Do you have an original thought or idea of your own?
    You may convince a few with impressive documents, as you continue to shirk the fact that an equally large number of Turks and Armenians died, but you will ultimately fail to convince those who you so desperately need to indoctrinate. Self-hate is not a Turkish habit.

76. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 6:36 pm

    I can put a list of more than 150 historians who says there was no genocide, and these are all respected historians in their field, This tells you the division and doubt about genocide, you can do all, go to Parliaments, govenments but at the end of the day Armenia does not want to have a open debate, research by historians, period. that’s why they want to crimilize feee debate about these sad events on both sides. What is sad is they cannot admit that Turks also dies and killed in those years. That is the corrupted morality, that is why TURKS do not trust…
    Humans are humans, does not matter who you are, if innocent people dies on both sides, you have to admit it.

    here is a small list, i do not want to fill the space. FREEDOM OF THOUGHT will always win at the end.

    they say there was NO GENOCIDE: ( JUST THIS PROVES THAT something is wrong with these claims. and also this professor of Sociology doet not know what she is talking about and should stick to sociology, and have other sinister reasons..probably, note that i say probably. not like them, accuse anyone with ease)

    IFAAT ABOU-EL-HAJ Professor of History California State University at Long Beach
    RODERIC DAVISON Professor of History George Washington University
    SARAH MOMENT ATIS Professor of Turkish Language & Literature University of Wisconsin at Madison
    WALTER DENNY Professor of Art History Associate & Near Eastern Studies University of Massachusetts
    KARL BARBIR Associate Professor of History Siena College (New York)
    DR. ALAN DUBEN Anthropologist, Researcher New York City
    ILHAN BASGOZ Director of the Turkish Studies Program at the Department of Ural-Altaic Studies Indiana University
    ELLEN ERVIN Research Assistant Professor of Turkish New York University
    DANIEL G. BATES Professor of Anthropology Hunter College, City University of New York
    CAESAR FARAH Professor of Islamic & Middle Eastern History University of Minnesota
    ULKU BATES Professor of Art History Hunter College, City University of New York
    CARTER FINDLEY Associate Professor of History The Ohio State University
    GUSTAV BAYERLE Professor of Uralic & Altaic Studies Indiana University
    MICHAEL FINEFROCK, Professor of History College of Charleston
    ANDREAS G. E. BODROGLIGETTI Professor of Turkic & Iranian languages University of California at Los Angeles
    ALAN FISHER Professor of History Michigan State University
    KATHLEEN BURRILL Associate Professor of Turkish Studies Columbia University
    CORNELL FLEISCHER Assistant Professor of History Washington University (Missouri)
    TIMOTHY CHILDS Professorial Lecturer at SAIS, Johns Hopkins University
    PETER GOLDEN Professor of History Rutgers University, Newark
    SHAFIGA DAULET Associate Professor of Political Science University of Connecticut
    TOM GOODRICH Professor of History Indiana University of Pennsylvania
    JUSTIN McCARTHY Associate Professor of History University of Louisville
    ANDREW COULD Ph.D. in Ottoman History Flagstaff, Arizona
    JON MANDAVILLE Professor of the History of the Middle East Portland State University (Oregon)
    MICHAEL MEEKER Professor of Anthropology University of California at San Diego
    RHOADS MURPHEY Assistant Professor of Middle Eastern Languages, Cultures & History Columbia University
    THOMAS NAFF Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research Institute University of Pennsylvania
    PIERRE OBERLING Professor of History Hunter College of the City University of New York
    WILLIAM OCHSENWALD Associate Professor of History Virginia Polytechnic Institute
    ROBERT OLSON Associate Professor of History University of Kentucky
    WILLIAM PEACHY Assistant Professor of the Judaic, Near Eastern Languages & Literatures The Ohio State University
    DONALD QUATAERT Associate Professor of History University of Houston
    HOWARD REED Professor of History University of Connecticut
    WILLIAM GRISWOLD Professor of History Colorado State University
    TIBOR HALASI-KUN Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies Columbia University
    WILLIAM HICKMAN Associate Professor of Turkish University of California, Berkeley
    J. C. HUREWITZ Professor of Government Emeritus Former Director of the Middle East Institute (1971-1984)Columbia University
    JOHN HYMES Professor of History Glenville State College West Virginia
    HALIL INALCIK University Professor of Ottoman History, Member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences University of Chicago
    RALPH JAECKEL Visiting Assistant Professor of Turkish University of California at Los Angeles
    RONALD JENNINGS Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies University of Illinois

77. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 6:42 pm

    ” Statesmen and politicians make history, and scholars write it. ” this is what it should be, freedom of speech and thought.

78. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 6:52 pm

    this is from US state department:
    How Armenians massacred civilians. why France does not legislate any laws for this too?? funny isnt it??

    “Following a March 1992 massacre of Azerbaijanis at Khojali in Nagorno-Karabakh (a predominantly ethnic Armenian region within Azerbaijan), ”

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2909.htm

79. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 6:54 pm

    please read some of these information here also: it includes lots of government documents ( from all different countries)

    http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

80. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 6:57 pm

    here is another attempt to ban FREE SPEECH AND THOUGHT:

    “on a November 1993 Le Monde interview, Lewis said that the Ottoman Turks� killing of up to 1.5 million Armenians in 1915 was not “genocide”, but the “brutal byproduct of war”.[10] Lewis himself argued that “the issue is not whether the massacres happened or not, but rather if these massacres were as a result of a deliberate preconceived decision of the Turkish government,” and that “there is no evidence for such a decision.”[11] A Parisian court interpreted his remarks as a denial of the Armenian Genocide and on June 21, 1995 fined him one franc. “

81. olc Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 7:01 pm

    you can go read it in a library or archives of UK government. remember Britain was an enemy of Ottomans, so be judgemental and critical of everything and research it independently.

    They were an occupying power in Istanbul for 3 years and they could not find a single document to prove their point, believe me they probably tried so hard.

    “There are in hands of Majesty�s government at Malta a number of Turks arrested for alleged complicity in the Armenian massacres. There are considerable difficulty in establishing proofs of guilt. Please ascertain if the United States government is in possession of any evidence that would be of value for the purpose of prosecution.�”

    BritishArchives. PRO�F. 0. 371/
    6500/ E.3552, Curzon to Geddes
    Telegram No 176, dated March 31,
    1921.

    isn’t this funny above?? they were there 3 years to look for evidence and they cannot find it, they need help from USA!! Americans were not in charge of the archives or documents of ottomans at all!! desperate act isn’t it??!

    and just read the SEVRES TREATY – it shows you what the plans for turkish people. put them in a small land with no sea access and give the rest of Turkey to Armenians, Greeks, British, French, Italians etc… That was the whole thing why Armenians ( not the whole population ofcourse) fought along side of French and Russians against their fellow citizens.

    And for genocide accusation, one last comment, if it was a genocide, why the armenians in WESTERN TURKEY, never been touched? Definition of GENOCIDE is defined in International law, you can read it. just this fact alone would make this case thrown out of the Real courts if you were to sue.

82. metin Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 8:07 pm

    Does the term ‘Genocide’ specifically refer to Armenians?

    Can one be called a genocide-denier even if they believe in the Holocaust or any other genocide? Can we have a ‘civil’ discussion and discuss if it’s the state who’s guilty, but why attack its citizens and individuals. If it’s the individuals who are guilty, then can we at least extend the courtesy of civility and non-argumentative debate to initiate conversation instead of forced acceptance. Or is this the same old technique I am so used to by now (humbly speaking) that is actually costing the Armenians scoring points. I am sure the Armenian cause is not happy being represented by the likes of such as demonstrated here. Just accept it or else attitude is not going to work! Turning this thread into a ‘fanatic’ environment is not appropriate for some of us who really need to move on. So much anger, hate, and disrespect is really not necessary.

83. jazzman Says:
    October 20th, 2006 at 8:08 pm

    Old Nick is right: , How long is a nation-state responsible to the survivors of peoples it once exploited or tried to annihilate? Can, how, and when do the people descended from the perpetrators win forgiveness from descendants of the victims?

    The past and future don’t exist, they are mental concepts, composed of hearsay and beliefs based on hearsay (largely unexamined and unquestioned) there is only NOW. NOW is the point of ALL resolution. The past is meaningless and history is the concern of those with axes to grind. Unless you personally are involved in the (whatever) unpleasantness or seek revenge for imagined personal affronts, you don’t have a dog in the fight.

    One cannot legitimately avenge another’s mistreatment especially generationally distant acts – the responsibility for action is between the “victim” and the “perpetrator.” If the victim chooses to be a part of a drama then that is the victim’s statement and the perpetrator’s – both are responsible. Human beings have resorted to inhumane treatment of their fellows (primarily out of fear) from time immemorial. The list is extensive and deplorable – and virtually a part of EVERY culture that has existed till now.

    Until we (as a species) recognize all beings’ right to exist regardless of their beliefs or circumstance and allow freedom of thought and verbal expression to ALL (even personally repugnant expression) without physical violence, we who have a conscious mind to choose whether we commit violence or not, are less than ideal as a species. Societies that attempt to legislate thoughts, words and discourse will not endure.

    Peace to ALL

    Jazzman

84. Murat Altinbasak Says:
    November 18th, 2006 at 2:38 am

    As much as I liked for Jazzman to have the last word, I can’t help but return here simply to boast about meeting Orhan Pamuk in person the other day, even if only for a moment while he signed my books. To wit: http://americanturk.blogspot.com/2006/11/orhan-pamuk-meets-murat-at-brown.html

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