Jazzman

Can one be called a genocide-denier even if they believe in the Holocaust or any other genocide? Can we have a ‘civil’ discussion and discuss if it’s the state who’s guilty, but why attack its citizens and individuals. If it’s the individuals who are guilty, then can we at least extend the courtesy of civility and non-argumentative debate to initiate conversation instead of forced acceptance. Or is this the same old technique I am so used to by now (humbly speaking) that is actually costing the Armenians scoring points. I am sure the Armenian cause is not happy being represented by the likes of such as demonstrated here. Just accept it or else attitude is not going to work! Turning this thread into a ‘fanatic’ environment is not appropriate for some of us who really need to move on. So much anger, hate, and disrespect is really not necessary.

They were an occupying power in Istanbul for 3 years and they could not find a single document to prove their point, believe me they probably tried so hard.

“There are in hands of Majesty�s government at Malta a number of Turks arrested for alleged complicity in the Armenian massacres. There are considerable difficulty in establishing proofs of guilt. Please ascertain if the United States government is in possession of any evidence that would be of value for the purpose of prosecution.�”

BritishArchives. PRO�F. 0. 371/
6500/ E.3552, Curzon to Geddes
Telegram No 176, dated March 31,
1921.

isn’t this funny above?? they were there 3 years to look for evidence and they cannot find it, they need help from USA!! Americans were not in charge of the archives or documents of ottomans at all!! desperate act isn’t it??!

and just read the SEVRES TREATY – it shows you what the plans for turkish people. put them in a small land with no sea access and give the rest of Turkey to Armenians, Greeks, British, French, Italians etc… That was the whole thing why Armenians ( not the whole population ofcourse) fought along side of French and Russians against their fellow citizens.

And for genocide accusation, one last comment, if it was a genocide, why the armenians in WESTERN TURKEY, never been touched? Definition of GENOCIDE is defined in International law, you can read it. just this fact alone would make this case thrown out of the Real courts if you were to sue.

“on a November 1993 Le Monde interview, Lewis said that the Ottoman Turks� killing of up to 1.5 million Armenians in 1915 was not “genocide”, but the “brutal byproduct of war”.[10] Lewis himself argued that “the issue is not whether the massacres happened or not, but rather if these massacres were as a result of a deliberate preconceived decision of the Turkish government,” and that “there is no evidence for such a decision.”[11] A Parisian court interpreted his remarks as a denial of the Armenian Genocide and on June 21, 1995 fined him one franc. “

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

“Following a March 1992 massacre of Azerbaijanis at Khojali in Nagorno-Karabakh (a predominantly ethnic Armenian region within Azerbaijan), ”

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2909.htm

here is a small list, i do not want to fill the space. FREEDOM OF THOUGHT will always win at the end.

they say there was NO GENOCIDE: ( JUST THIS PROVES THAT something is wrong with these claims. and also this professor of Sociology doet not know what she is talking about and should stick to sociology, and have other sinister reasons..probably, note that i say probably. not like them, accuse anyone with ease)

IFAAT ABOU-EL-HAJ Professor of History California State University at Long Beach
RODERIC DAVISON Professor of History George Washington University
SARAH MOMENT ATIS Professor of Turkish Language & Literature University of Wisconsin at Madison
WALTER DENNY Professor of Art History Associate & Near Eastern Studies University of Massachusetts
KARL BARBIR Associate Professor of History Siena College (New York)
DR. ALAN DUBEN Anthropologist, Researcher New York City
ILHAN BASGOZ Director of the Turkish Studies Program at the Department of Ural-Altaic Studies Indiana University
ELLEN ERVIN Research Assistant Professor of Turkish New York University
DANIEL G. BATES Professor of Anthropology Hunter College, City University of New York
CAESAR FARAH Professor of Islamic & Middle Eastern History University of Minnesota
ULKU BATES Professor of Art History Hunter College, City University of New York
CARTER FINDLEY Associate Professor of History The Ohio State University
GUSTAV BAYERLE Professor of Uralic & Altaic Studies Indiana University
MICHAEL FINEFROCK, Professor of History College of Charleston
ANDREAS G. E. BODROGLIGETTI Professor of Turkic & Iranian languages University of California at Los Angeles
ALAN FISHER Professor of History Michigan State University
KATHLEEN BURRILL Associate Professor of Turkish Studies Columbia University
CORNELL FLEISCHER Assistant Professor of History Washington University (Missouri)
TIMOTHY CHILDS Professorial Lecturer at SAIS, Johns Hopkins University
PETER GOLDEN Professor of History Rutgers University, Newark
SHAFIGA DAULET Associate Professor of Political Science University of Connecticut
TOM GOODRICH Professor of History Indiana University of Pennsylvania
JUSTIN McCARTHY Associate Professor of History University of Louisville
ANDREW COULD Ph.D. in Ottoman History Flagstaff, Arizona
JON MANDAVILLE Professor of the History of the Middle East Portland State University (Oregon)
MICHAEL MEEKER Professor of Anthropology University of California at San Diego
RHOADS MURPHEY Assistant Professor of Middle Eastern Languages, Cultures & History Columbia University
THOMAS NAFF Professor of History & Director, Middle East Research Institute University of Pennsylvania
PIERRE OBERLING Professor of History Hunter College of the City University of New York
WILLIAM OCHSENWALD Associate Professor of History Virginia Polytechnic Institute
ROBERT OLSON Associate Professor of History University of Kentucky
WILLIAM PEACHY Assistant Professor of the Judaic, Near Eastern Languages & Literatures The Ohio State University
DONALD QUATAERT Associate Professor of History University of Houston
HOWARD REED Professor of History University of Connecticut
WILLIAM GRISWOLD Professor of History Colorado State University
TIBOR HALASI-KUN Professor Emeritus of Turkish Studies Columbia University
WILLIAM HICKMAN Associate Professor of Turkish University of California, Berkeley
J. C. HUREWITZ Professor of Government Emeritus Former Director of the Middle East Institute (1971-1984)Columbia University
JOHN HYMES Professor of History Glenville State College West Virginia
HALIL INALCIK University Professor of Ottoman History, Member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences University of Chicago
RALPH JAECKEL Visiting Assistant Professor of Turkish University of California at Los Angeles
RONALD JENNINGS Associate Professor of History & Asian Studies University of Illinois

ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS

June 13, 1997

Resolution

That this assembly of the Association of Genocide Scholars in its conference held in Montreal, June 11-13, 1997, reaffirms that the mass murder of Armenians in Turkey in 1915 is a case of genocide which conforms to the statutes of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. It further condemns the denial of the Armenian Genocide by the Turkish government and its official and unofficial agents and supporters.

March 7, 2000

View image of document

126 HOLOCAUST SCHOLARS AFFIRM THE INCONTESTABLE FACT OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND URGE WESTERN DEMOCRACIES TO OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZE IT

At the Thirtieth Anniversary of the Scholars’ Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches Convening at St. Joseph University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, March 3-7, 2000, one hundred twenty-six Holocaust Scholars, holders of Academic Chairs and Directors of Holocaust Research and Studies Centers, participants of the Conference, signed a statement affirming that the World War I Armenian Genocide is an incontestable historical fact and accordingly urge the governments of Western democracies to likewise recognize it as such. The petitioners, among whom is Nobel Laureate for Peace Elie Wiesel, who was the keynote speaker at the conference, also asked the Western Democracies to urge the Government and Parliament of Turkey to finally come to terms with a dark chapter of Ottoman-Turkish history and to recognize the Armenian Genocide. This would provide an invaluable impetus to the process of the democratization of Turkey.

Below is a partial list of the signatories:

Prof. Yehuda Bauer
Distinguished Professor
Hebrew University
Director, The International Institute of Holocaust Research
Yad Vashem, Jerusalem

Prof. Israel Charny, Director
Institute of the Holocaust and Genocide, Jerusalem
Professor at the Hebrew University,
Editor-in-Chief of The Encyclopedia of Genocide

Prof. Ward Churchill
Ethnic Studies
The University of Colorado, Boulder

Prof. Stephen Feinstein, Director
Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies
University of Minnesota

Prof. Saul Friedman, Director
Holocaust and Jewish Studies
Youngston State University, Ohio

Prof. Edward Gaffney
Valparaiso University Law School

Prof. Zev Garber
Los Angeles Valley College

Prof. Dorota Glowacka
University of King’s Collage
Halifax, Nova Scotia

Dr. Irving Greenberg, President
Jewish Life Network

Prof. Herbert Hirsch
Virginia Commonwealth University

Prof. Irving L. Horowitz
Hannah Arendt Distinguished Professor
Rutgers University, NJ

Rabbi Dr. Steve Jacobs
Temple Sinai Shalom
Huntsville, Alabama
Associate Editor of The Encyclopedia of Genocide

Prof. Steven Katz
Distinguish Professor
Director, Center for Judaic Studies
Boston University
Prof. Richard Libowitz
Temple University

Dr. Marcia Littell
Stockton College
Exec. Director, Scholars’ Conference
On the Holocaust and the Churches

Franklin Littell
Emeritus Professor
Temple University

Prof. Hubert G. Locke
Washington University
Co-founder of the Annual Scholar’s Conference
On the Holocaust and the Churches

Dr. Elizabeth Maxwell
Executive Director of the International Scholarly
Conference on the Holocaust, London, England

Prof. Erik Markusen
Southwest State University, MN

Prof. Saul Mendlowitz
Dag Hammerskjold Distinguished Professor
of International Law
Rutgers University

Prof. Jack Needle, Director
Center for Holocaust Studies
Brookdale Community College
Lincroft, NJ

Dr. Philip Rosen, Director
Holocaust Education Center of the Delaware Valley

Prof. Alan S, Rosenbaum
Dept. of Philosophy
Cleveland State University

William L. Shulman, President
Association of Holocaust Organizations City University of New York

Prof. Samuel Totten
The University of Arkansas
Assoc. Editor of The Encyclopedia of Genocide

Prof. Elie Wiesel
Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities
Boston University
Founding Chairman of the United States
Holocaust Memorial Council
Nobel Laureate for Peace

I hereby declare that the originals of these one hundred and twenty-six signatories are on file in my office. All affiliations supplied are for identification purposes only.

Dr. Stephen Feinstein, Director,
Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies
University of Minnesota

France and its friends want to shut debate, ban free speech, freedom of thought. At the end of the day Freedom will will. and People will know the facts.

Even this radio program banned free speech by not having people who had opposite ideas and counter points. It was an one sided show for themselves to satify themselves and make Naive people believe their lies. You have probably succeeded in this, but at least if one person sees these posts and questions the lies. then I am happy. shame on this program for this kind of program.

June 9, 1981 – Geneva, Switzerland: An Armenian gunman assassinates Turkish Consulate Secretary, Mehmet Savas Yerguz, as he is leaving his office. Swiss authorities apprehend Mardiros Jamgotchian.

September 24, 1981 – Paris, France: Four Armenian gunmen seize the Turkish Consulate, taking 56 people hostage for 16 hours. During the siege, Armenian gunman Kevork Guzelian shoots and seriously wounds Consul Kaya Inal and a Turkish security officer, Mr. Cemal Ozen.

Source: Stanford J Shaw & Ezel Kural Shaw, History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume IIl ?: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975). (London, Cambridge University Press 1977).

Professor Shaw’s home in Los Angeles was BOMBED by Armenians on October 4, 1977 for writing this history that deviated from the Armenians’ script.

Leaving Erivan on April 28, 1915, only a day after the deportation orders had been issued in Istanbul and long before news of them could have reached the least, (Armenian volunteers) reached Van on May 14 and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake.

anyone who says there was no genocide always becomes a lier, in the pocket of turkish government, please, have a little sense. I say who does not know the history of this region and time, read it and you will see how armenians ( not all) rised up and joined the russians against their countrymen and try to grap land. and massacred civilians. just read history book that are OBJECTIVE, not historians with armenians last names.

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April 24, 1998 — Armenian Remembrance Day

This year, as in the past, we join with Armenian-Americans throughout the nation in commemorating one of the saddest chapters in the history of this century, the deportations and massacres of a million and a half Armenians in the Ottoman Empire in the years 1915-1923.

This painful event from the past also serves as a powerful lesson for the future: that man’s inhumanity to man must not be tolerated, and that evil cannot conquer. The Armenian people have endured, surviving the ravages of two World Wars and seven decades of Soviet rule. Throughout the world, and especially in this country, Armenians have contributed to the material, intellectual and spiritual lives of their adopted homes. Today’s Armenians are building a free and independent nation that stands as a living tribute to all those who died.

The United States will continue working to preserve a free Armenia in a peaceful, stable and prosperous Caucasus region. In that spirit, I extend to all Armenians my best wishes on Remembrance Day in the fervent hope that those who died will never be forgotten.

Bill Clinton

And Reagan was in bed with the generals in Turkey , giving them millions in military aid to prop up the regime and letting them run amuck in Kurdistan..

And even he recognised The Armenian Genocide……

Both these so-called historians Shaw, Lewis, et al, are known to be in the pay of the Ankara regime….

Genocide deniers have no where else to turn when they try to prove their case.

I am not denying the freedom of any human rights association to do as it pleases. In fact, I abhor the treatment of such by Turkey, or any other state. But it is ridiculously absurd to push for human rights when it serves one’s purpose and to restrict it when it doesn’t. Rather, my problem is with you (and your misrepresentation of facts,) within the context of your state of intellect.

I hope the Armenian cause finds better representation than the French and those who misinform the public about the truth. I too would like the truth to come out no matter what the expense. However, I am all for trial before being found guilty. And like I said before, who knows, maybe a genocide of Turks at the hands of Armenians might even make its appearance in some press release.

In the meantime, I am still awaiting an Armenian (or a Turk) commenting on Pamuk’s books.

“When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact.”

“Practically all of them were atheists, with no more respect for Mohammedanism than for Christianity, and with them the one motive was cold-blooded, calculating state policy.”

——————————————————————————–

One day I was discussing these proceedings with a responsible Turkish official, who was describing the tortures inflicted. He made no secret of the fact that the Government had instigated them, and, like all Turks of the official classes, he enthusiastically approved this treatment of the detested race. This official told me that all these details were matters of nightly discussion at the headquarters of the Union and Progress Committee. Each new method of inflicting pain was hailed as a splendid discovery, and the regular attendants were constantly ransacking their brains in the effort to devise some new torment. He told me that they even delved into the records of the Spanish Inquisition and other historic institutions of torture and adopted all the suggestions found there. He did not tell me who carried off the prize in this gruesome competition, but common reputation through Armenia gave a preeminent infamy to Djevdet Bey, the Vali of Van, whose activities in that section I have already described. All through this country Djevdet was generally known as the “horseshoer of Bashkale” for this connoisseur in torture had invented what was perhaps the masterpiece of all — that of nailing horseshoes to the feet of his Armenian victims.

Yet these happenings did not constitute what the newspapers of the time commonly referred to as the Armenian atrocities; they were merely the preparatory steps in the destruction of the race. The Young Turks displayed greater ingenuity than their predecessor, Abdul Hamid. The injunction of the deposed Sultan was merely “to kill, kill”, whereas the Turkish democracy hit upon an entirely new plan. Instead of massacring outright the Armenian race, they now decided to deport it. In the south and southeastern section of the Ottoman Empire lie the Syrian desert and the Mesopotamian valley. Though part of this area was once the scene of a flourishing civilization, for the last five centuries it has suffered the blight that becomes the lot of any country that is subjected to Turkish rule; and it is now a dreary, desolate waste, without cities and towns or life of any kind, populated only by a few wild and fanatical Bedouin tribes. Only the most industrious labour, expended through many years, could transform this desert into the abiding place of any considerable population. The Central Government now announced its intention of gathering the two million or more Armenians living in the several sections of the empire and transporting them to this desolate and inhospitable region. Had they undertaken such a deportation in good faith it would have represented the height of cruelty and injustice. As a matter of fact, the Turks never had the slightest idea of reestablishing the Armenians in this new country. They knew that the great majority would never reach their destination and that those who did would either die of thirst and starvation, or be murdered by the wild Mohammedan desert tribes. The real purpose of the deportation was robbery and destruction; it really represented a new methods of massacre. When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact.

[paragraphs omitted]

I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared with the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915. The slaughter of the Albigenses in the early part of the thirteenth century has always been regarded as one of the most pitiful events in history. In these outbursts of fanaticism about 60,000 people were killed. In the massacre of St. Bartholomew about 30,000 human beings lost their lives. The Sicilian Vespers, which has always figured as one of the most fiendish outbursts of this kind, caused the destruction of 8,000. Volumes have been written about the Spanish Inquisition under Torquemada, yet in the eighteen years of his administration only a little more that 8,000 heretics were done to death. Perhaps the one event in history that most resembles the Armenian deportations was the expulsion of the Jews from Spain by Ferdinand and Isabella. According to Prescott 160,000 were uprooted from their homes and scattered broadcast over Africa and Europe. Yet all these previous persecutions seem almost trivial when we compare them with the sufferings of the Armenians, in which at least 600,000 people were destroyed and perhaps as many as 1,000,000. And these earlier massacres when we compare them with the spirit that directed the Armenian atrocities, have one feature that we can almost describe as an excuse: they were the product of religious fanaticism and most of the men and women who instigated them sincerely believed that they were devoutly serving their Maker. Undoubtedly religious fanaticism was an impelling motive with the Turkish and Kurdish rabble who slew Armenians as a service to Allah, but the men who really conceived the crime had no such motive. Practically all of them were atheists, with no more respect for Mohammedanism than for Christianity, and with them the one motive was cold-blooded, calculating state policy.

Henry Morgenthau, Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story (New York: Doubleday, Page & Co.: 1919), pp. 307-309, 321-323.

“As for the charge of “genocide,” no signatory of this statement wishes to minimize the scope of Armenian suffering. We are likewise cognizant that it cannot be viewed as separate from the suffering experienced by the Muslim inhabitants of the region. The weight of evidence so far uncovered points in the direct of serious inter communal warfare (perpetrated by Muslim and Christian irregular forces), complicated by disease, famine, suffering and massacres in Anatolia and adjoining areas during the First World WW1…….. “

May 11, 2000

On the occasion of the 85th anniversary of massacres perpetrated by the Ottoman authorities in the year 1915, as a result of which 1.5 million Armenians fell victim, the Lebanese Chamber of Deputies recognizes and condemns the genocide perpetrated against the Armenian people and expresses its complete solidarity with demands of its Armenian citizens. Furthermore, it believes that the international recognition of this genocide is a necessary condition for the prevention of similar crimes that may occur in the future.

there was massacres on both sides. if it really was a genocide why the armenians living in the west of turkey were not touched?? just this fact would make genocide claim false. if you go to a court and sue turkey, Court would throw out the case just beacause of this fact. ( definition of genocide as defined)

why don’t you read some historians like BERNARD LEWIS Professor of Near Eastern History Princeton, STANFORD SHAW Professor of History University of California who say it was not a genocide,

I would have thought that the above proclamation of Turkey’s Human Rights Association RECOGNIZING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE might be used by all genocide deniers as proof that things are changing for the better in Turkey.

Could you tell me how many members of the Human Right Association were detained after thie proclamation became public????