What does the left always come up with some fantasy scenario which turns people into these manipulable dolls instead of free conscious beings?”

It’s not to do with left or right it’s just a matter of fact that we don’t have free will.

We can do what we want but what we want must depend on what we are and what circumstances we are in.

the reasons people won’t accept this have nothing to do with the facts, they just don’t like it.

But we are never going to deal with our problems effectively and increase our well being and happiness until people get real about this be they from the left or right.

When we make a choice we can select the option we want the most, which is great but that’s it, that is as far as our control goes.

What more control could there possibly be?

Stephen

However, I spend a lot of time in Moscow, and McDonald’s there is, well, not bad. First the food is better, some of the bad taste you experience at an an American McDonalds is the taste of the disappointment of the low wage employee. The food at the Moscow McDonalds is reasonably priced, so that young people can afford to eat there, not true with most of the rapidly inflating city. They provide what is virtually the only public restrooms in Moscow, and they are remarkably clean. The are one of the few free wi-fi providers there, and even have computer kiosks in some location and offer free internet, leaving most Moscovites in disbelief. They’re food handling proceedures are way above Russian standards, and it’s hard to get sick eating at one. They are located near every major Metro stop. Anyways I won’t go on, because I don’t want to talk it up that much. But a down-home Georgian Shuslik (shishkabob) sent me to a Russian hospital once. And the Russian McDonalds are still cleaner then most Russian hospitals.

So… Man can not live by Amazing “down-home” eats alone. It’s a nice hobbie, but it’s not the anwser, or even the question. And the rule that local and traditional always trumps corporate is a good idea, but doesn’t always happen. In certain parts of America, the Olive Garden is the best italian restaurant.

After all, isn’t a Chowhound just a Foodie with an anthropological ax to grind?

Anyway, It’s not all about the YUM factor, I think it’s has a lot to do with the the “new America” and the shadow of the old, it’s not just in the food, it’s in the music, art, and life.

Peanuts have been known to kill people should they be banned?

I have absolutely no problem with consumer groups advocating or warnining us as to the benifts and or harm that products can have. The more knowledge and education the better, but let the people decide. We are not as dumb and uneducated as some tend to believe.

Take your ephedra example. If it truly is a killer and people know this,do you think they will still purchase the product? Those who care about their health will stay away. Those who dont care will still buy it. Either way what business is it of yours.

As to the original topic of loss of dining choices due to chains. I dont find this to be true at all. I see Indian, Thai, Vietnameese, Jamacain, cambodian,Kenyan etc,etc restaurants springing up all over the place. I have more than enough choices. Have a nice day.

“The govt should stay the hell out of the business of telling people what they can and can not do in regards to ones own health.”

I think of many regulations that protect individual health. FDA and other regulatory agencies are big safeguards that should never be dispensed with. For example: herbal dietary supplements with ephedra, once considered safe in use, have been pulled from shelves, because they’ve been known to kill certain individuals, namely atheletes. I can’t think of any reason why the government should not intervene in cases like this.

——————

But once again, this forum has morphed into a heated debate about fast food and healthy choices, which is a whole other subject matter and so obvious. I wish the baby and McDonalds Big Mac weren’t the primary image on this page; because, if you listen to the first panelist who framed the discussion, he’s saying more about the loss of quality in the dining landscape as a result of chains than forging some Fast Food Nation diatribe, which was a side discussion.

Oh hell. Maybe Christopher Lydon should redo the show, and this time not mention health and obesity as part of the discussion.

I don’t think we differ on to much maybe just in the degrees.
As I said I’m all for strict penalties on misleading and false advertisement. I actually wish they were steeper.
I’m also a big believer in the first amendment, and personal freedom so I dont like to see restrictions and the govt telling me what I can and can’t consume. I agree that we should educate those around us. The more knowledge that is exchanged the better. I have nothing against public advocacy groups They can be very helpful. Of course being a skeptic I would want to know where their funding comes from. Always follow the money.

I’m not sure if you are conservative or liberal the thought never really entered my mind. I dont really see this as a Lib vs Con issue. Ultimately as I learned many years ago we are all responsible for our own actions. I know this sounds harsh and very narrow minded but it has helped me and I think others as well.
I live in the freest country on earth. Every choice I have made in my life (many of them bad) have come of my own volition. Sometimes I am rewarded and sometimes I have to suffer.
I ran 5 miles today so I think I’m going to go get a pack of peanut butter cups and a pack of Suzi-Q’s. Good Luck.

You might be interested in his poetic past podcast about candy…

Aired Aug 25, 2005
http://stream.publicbroadcasting.net/ros/open_source_050825.mp3

Compare what you know know to what you knew ten years ago. Are you the same person?

If you took newly acquired knowledge and let your family members know…how many of them would scoff at you and say you were just touting liberal lies or conspiracy theories? This is the problem sometimes with conservatism. It’s cautious for good reason. But also can be stubborn against new ideas (some dangerous if misused). Especially if the person pushing them doesn’t put it in layman’s terms.

I never said ban anything. The public conscious or “common sense” will be the guiding force of what is banned or not. But that takes years. The common consensus today is that smoking is hazardous to ones health and smoking companies have been hiding this fact back 25-50 years ago when they knew it to be dangerous; all hidden behind snazzy marking of the “liberty/freedom” logo. Well, sooner or later common sense wins out. Or you would hope so.

This is the reason that public awareness and advocacy groups are needed. They keep an eye out on what things the average man doesn’t know about.

Now I ask you this. Am I a conservative or a liberal? Or maybe I’m just a freethinker.

One thing you said above, “So their is no problem with advertising and marketing.” There is nothing wrong with the way your framed it. But when marketing get too deceptive and preys upon those that can’t defend themselves. That’s when things are wrong. And if you are aware of this then maybe it’s a good idea to inform others and then let them decide for themselves. Some will even dismiss your information (like you did to others here) as hogwash. But at least try and get the information out.

The question will also be: How far is too far (deceptive marketing)? Marketing will always try to push the boundaries.

Nevertheless, never discard acquired knowledge no matter how outlandish or crazy it might sound. A hundred years ago space travel, satellites, lasers, genetic engineering, the internet and Instant Messaging would have been considered “crazy.”

Human Genome Project… http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/genome/program.html

1. Companies are in business to make money. They are going to market their products in ways in which they can maximize their profit.. I agree with you on this point. I also would expect any stock holder or employee to think the same. So their is no problem with advertising and marketing.

2. Yes I use “I “or myself as examples. but I could also use other people who do the same thing. My point is in respects to fast food and nutrition is that anyone can eat healthy, and avoid bad choices. with little cost to themselves. You also dont need to be a genious to follow a healthy life style. So yes I use I but it really applies to almost everyone. Poor people stay fit and eat healthy as do rich people. Just as many poor people don’t exercise and eat junk. The same holds true with the rich. I would exclude those with serious health issues.

3. I’m all for public awareness. I think it is great to get out messages that such and such a product may be bad for your health. I am also against deceptive advertising. I would like to see tougher penalties given to companies that lie about their product. So on this we probably agree . As I said I’m more about personal responsibility, So if a company purposely misleads or lies they should be held accountable.

4. Your point about smoking is well taken, and I agree. Of course we all know smoking has been bad for your health for over 40 years. I remember as a child my father showing me the cover of a pack of cigs. Right there on the side “The surgeon general has determined that smoking may be hazordous to your health etc etc” or words to that affect. Yet today people still smoke, but the numbers are decreasing. Keep in mind this is still a free country and ones right to smoke should never be taken away. I totally disagree with laws prohibiting smoking in bars and clubs. Thats another debate for another day. The reason people still smoke is simply because they enjoy it. People do many things that are not wise.
The govt should stay the hell out of the business of telling people what they can and can not do in regards to ones own health.

I wont lump you in with many others because I’m not exactly sure what your stance is,but it just seems to many people are ready to blame marketing and by extension big companies for poor the choices that they make. Yes I to am influenced by advertising, and have made many bad choices in my life in regards to products and other things.Do I get angry? Yes. but usually after a short time I realize if I had done more research I could have made a better choice.

I’m not an apologist for chains and big companies. I might add that mass marketing and advertising is a big turnoff to me personally. But I realize that big companies employ millions of people, and they have a responsibility to turn a profit. This in turn keeps the country moving forward and allows us to have the standard of living that we all crave. Someone once said “buyer beware” I guess unfortunatly this has and always will be the slogan to keep in mind when one is being bombarded by marketing and advertising schemes of all types.

My suggestion to YOU was not learning about heathy food or not. It was learning marketing psychology. Do not discard knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes as non-existent just because you don’t “believe” it has any effect on you.

This postcast is about public awareness that you should never discount. You might not believe some of the topics talked about. But don’t discount it for others that want to use it (for good or bad reasons).

I did not say, “big bad corporations.” You did. I merely pointed out what one can do in order to maximize profits by any means possible. It’s not about whether someone knows about healthy or unhealthy foods. It about making sure they keep eating what a particular company sell them.

Millions of people smoke even though they KNOW it’s unhealthy. Yet they keep doing it. Think about it. But public awareness has changed behaviors and consciousness. This program was nothing more than a social commentary. The first time I heard it I thought of it as a fun commentary about our current consumer atmosphere told from a particular point of view.

Also, you need to go back and re-read all your post. Notice how you preface most of your posts with “I never” or “I have…” or “I didn’t…” Wake up call. The world doesn’t revolve around just you. Just because you never experienced something. Does it mean that it doesn’t exist.

By the way, I was not mocking the poor. I was mocking the unscrupulous. I’m for public awareness no matter what the demographic.

There is no scientific basis for free will.

If you describe the universe in classical newtonian terms then you have a completely deterministic model. When you introduce quantum mechanics you introduce non-determinism, but non-determinism provides no basis for free will either, unless you assume that an unstable isotope “chooses” to randomly emit an alpha particle.

In purely scientific terms what we call “free will” is probably just an epiphenomenon of whatever set of neural functions produces a feeling of consciousness.

If you are ignorant about nutrition, I suggest it is due to your own lack of curiosity or desire to educate yourself. not the big bad corporations. But if it makes you feel better go right ahead and keep blaming them.

I hate people who infer that poor people are stupid and uneducated. Allison did this earlier. Just because someone may not be as wealthy as you does not mean they are to dumb to know the difference between healthy and unhealthy foods.

You say, “I love junk food. Candy, pies, cookies, cake, pizza. hot dogs, you name it I like it. My choice is to eat it and become over weight or refrain and stay healthy.”

Love that type of consumer. Very profitable. But key markets that I would go after are the lowest common denominator that don’t have the knowledge or choice that you would. Namely the poorer demographics of the USA.

Ignorance is a very valuable tool of sales for many products ranging from drugs, chemicals to food. What you don’t know can’t hurt you, I like to say. As long as it “cures, cleans or is tasty.”

No need to care about “them” since it’s all about survival of the fittest, right?

Ah…I love the free market. There’s a sucker born every minute.

P.S. I hate the FDA. They get in my way!

This whole bit about a 2002 teenage lawsuit against McDs has been a red herring in our discusssion, leading us far away from a much more saucy subject.

The other thing that people really dont understand about fast food and obesity is this. It is not really what you eat, but how much of it that you eat. All you have to do in order to lose weight is burn of more calories than you consume.
I can go to Burger King and eat a 400calorie cheese burger. I can then go out and exercise burning off 600 calories. By doing this I am loseing weight and I can eat whatever I wish. On the flip side I can eat a meal consisting of vegetables and soy protein, consisting of perhaps 250 calories. I can then proceed to my computer and post all night burning off maybe 100 calories.What have I just done ? I’ve gained weight. Of course Ideally it would be best to eat veggies and work out.

You see none of this is really rocket science. It is all rather straight forward stuff. People try and complicate matters and explain away poor choices by finding someone other than themselves to blame.

It is your body. It is truely the one thing that we own and possess. We have total control of what we do with it. I’ll be damned if im going to let someone else dictate to me what I eat and how I take care of it. If you want to stay healthy eat nutritiously and exercise. If you dont care about these things, eat what ever you want and enjoy it. But dont gain 50 pounds and then come crying about how fast food chains are forcing you to eat unhealthy food.

I love junk food. Candy, pies, cookies, cake, pizza. hot dogs, you name it I like it. My choice is to eat it and become over weight or refrain and stay healthy. Very simple,and very black and white. Good luck.

What’s lost in this sort of decision making is the element of surprise and delight — because you’ve made a safe choice. Though Starbucks, Panera, and Cheesecake Factories continually find ways to delight, the high is hardly unique. They are in essence familiar, safe picks among crowds with discernable tastebuds, but how they fix and serve their food makes them clever shepherds of finely-cloaked mediocrity.

Over time, that tasty Pumpkin muffin (with its honey flavor sprinkled with powdered sugar on top) you first enjoyed in Boston no longer kept it’s original charm after you tried the same muffin near Chicago’s OHare airport and then in Phoenix. The soul of that tasty muffin was never there – though locally baked, it’s recipe and technique didn’t originate from salaried chef at that Panera location — rather it was researched, means-tested, priced, and marketed somewhere else, and then wound up here, and there, and elsewhere as Panera’s Pumpkin Muffin, “baked locally”. Would you like a cup of fair trade, organic coffee with that sir? Here’s your red beeper – it vibrates when you’re ready? Yuk!!

rc21- What happened to your theory that it’s in a company’s own best interest to do what is best for all? This would include the health of it’s customers no?

Or is it more true to say that the bottom line is all that matters and if a company can push the responsibility for any resultant ill (other than what will effect it’s income) onto anyone else, it will.

Maybe your response is for all of us to become chemists, nutritionists, lawyers and shop defensively. The latter- for sure.

BTW- I recommend checking http://www.cspinet.org/. For years I have been subscribing to their Nutrition Action health letter (The Center for Science in the Public Interest is an advocacy group that informs the public and acts politically).