Comments on: The Georgia (and Russia) Off Our Minds http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/ Christopher Lydon in conversation on arts, ideas and politics Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:09:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: phyrefly http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/#comment-79828 phyrefly Sat, 30 Dec 2006 05:20:56 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=770#comment-79828 It seems worth mentioning that Politkovskaya's Vtoraia Chechenskaia in the original Russian, as posted at http://www.tapirr.com/polit/politkovskaya.htm is incomplete in relation to the Chicago edition of the same work. Thus, her written material has been tampered with. The chapter Zheltoe i Chernom ('Yellow On Black') also interestingly includes referrals to Zakayev, London cafes and Soviet spy films, which the original Russian text lacks. It seems worth mentioning that Politkovskaya’s Vtoraia Chechenskaia in the original Russian, as posted at

http://www.tapirr.com/polit/politkovskaya.htm

is incomplete in relation to the Chicago edition of the same work. Thus, her written material has been tampered with. The chapter Zheltoe i Chernom (‘Yellow On Black’) also interestingly includes referrals to Zakayev, London cafes and Soviet spy films, which the original Russian text lacks.

]]> By: enders_e http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/#comment-79827 enders_e Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:02:54 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=770#comment-79827 Mr. Cohen seems to be fighting the last war – where it was easier for us to deal with one large power, rather than many small powers with individual concerns. He glosses over the conflict in Abkhazia as a “massacre” of Abkhazian nationals, without mentioning that the political support for that conflict came from mercenaries purchased by Moscow and including Chechens; without mentioning the 300,000 internally displaced persons from Abkhazia now living in the rest of Georgia without reparation; and without discussing the colonization of Abkhazia by Russia through passports, pensions, and troop monitoring of an artificial border in Gali – and it is colonization, since Abkhazia is a territory not recognized independently by the United Nations or indeed any other organization/place besides Russia. His arguments proceed without mentioning the illegal break by Abkhazians of the cease fire in that conflict and the murder of unarmed Georgians in that conflict, and without acknowledging that conflicts have two sides. Mr. Cohen argues from a historical perspective, not from the current benefits perspective. It’s all well and good to say that he’s afraid of an American empire and its effect on the growth of Russian psychological anger toward the west (if one can speak about an underlying ethos of an entire nation), but this worry on behalf of Russia, about Russia encirclement feels like pandering to a great power/small power dichotomy. Or maybe our concerns about that rump state’s nuclear threat. Instead, the US should and seems to be looking to the reality that there are, as Edward Lucas reports, sincere, real benefits both security-wise and economy-wise for former satellite states joining NATO and other western institutions. It’s unacceptable to say that the US should sacrifice any more of its credibility in supporting democratic principles (as it did with captive states during the cold war – cf Hungary) simply because it doesn’t want to hurt Russia’s feelings and make them tense. If Russia stopped being such a bad partner for the states it wants to influence, instead of creating badly-managed relationships that don’t work. Georgia has the right to progress toward its goal, and the US has sincere strategic interest in exploring this possibility – indeed for the very reason Cohen wishes to pander to Russia – oil interests from the Caspian, exiting through western-managed, western-friendly routes based on BUSINESS PRINCIPLES and transparency rather than a country that will use pipelines and nuclear threat as a way to make a land-and-power grab. And by the way, Stalin may have been Georgian, but the Russians created the system that put him in place. It’s absurd to say that all Georgians are responsible for the acts of one man, educated and functioning in a Russian-created bureaucratic machine. Mr. Cohen seems to be fighting the last war – where it was easier for us to deal with one large power, rather than many small powers with individual concerns. He glosses over the conflict in Abkhazia as a “massacre” of Abkhazian nationals, without mentioning that the political support for that conflict came from mercenaries purchased by Moscow and including Chechens; without mentioning the 300,000 internally displaced persons from Abkhazia now living in the rest of Georgia without reparation; and without discussing the colonization of Abkhazia by Russia through passports, pensions, and troop monitoring of an artificial border in Gali – and it is colonization, since Abkhazia is a territory not recognized independently by the United Nations or indeed any other organization/place besides Russia. His arguments proceed without mentioning the illegal break by Abkhazians of the cease fire in that conflict and the murder of unarmed Georgians in that conflict, and without acknowledging that conflicts have two sides.

Mr. Cohen argues from a historical perspective, not from the current benefits perspective. It’s all well and good to say that he’s afraid of an American empire and its effect on the growth of Russian psychological anger toward the west (if one can speak about an underlying ethos of an entire nation), but this worry on behalf of Russia, about Russia encirclement feels like pandering to a great power/small power dichotomy. Or maybe our concerns about that rump state’s nuclear threat. Instead, the US should and seems to be looking to the reality that there are, as Edward Lucas reports, sincere, real benefits both security-wise and economy-wise for former satellite states joining NATO and other western institutions.

It’s unacceptable to say that the US should sacrifice any more of its credibility in supporting democratic principles (as it did with captive states during the cold war – cf Hungary) simply because it doesn’t want to hurt Russia’s feelings and make them tense. If Russia stopped being such a bad partner for the states it wants to influence, instead of creating badly-managed relationships that don’t work. Georgia has the right to progress toward its goal, and the US has sincere strategic interest in exploring this possibility – indeed for the very reason Cohen wishes to pander to Russia – oil interests from the Caspian, exiting through western-managed, western-friendly routes based on BUSINESS PRINCIPLES and transparency rather than a country that will use pipelines and nuclear threat as a way to make a land-and-power grab.

And by the way, Stalin may have been Georgian, but the Russians created the system that put him in place. It’s absurd to say that all Georgians are responsible for the acts of one man, educated and functioning in a Russian-created bureaucratic machine.

]]> By: Katherine http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/#comment-79826 Katherine Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:17:04 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=770#comment-79826 jazzman: Great idea to contact Elric -- i'm sorry it was too late to track him down. jazzman: Great idea to contact Elric — i’m sorry it was too late to track him down.

]]> By: Johnny Wharton http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/#comment-79825 Johnny Wharton Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:10:48 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=770#comment-79825 Just listened to the show this morning, thanks very much for an extroadinary account of the going ons in Russia and Georgia as explained and debated by two very eleoquent guests. If only political debate was normally at this level!! Just listened to the show this morning, thanks very much for an extroadinary account of the going ons in Russia and Georgia as explained and debated by two very eleoquent guests. If only political debate was normally at this level!!

]]> By: Marc McElroy http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/#comment-79824 Marc McElroy Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:38:01 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=770#comment-79824 I got to speak on the show this evening, thanks. It was quite a heated debate. Anyway, the one thing I would have liked to mention that I forgot to is, it's all about the OIL. Russia refused to let us do whatever we wanted in the 90's and we took our ball and went home. Kazakstan is jumping to give us cheap oil to support their regieme, and a deal with Georgia makes this all possible. Folloe the money, and the oil. I got to speak on the show this evening, thanks. It was quite a heated debate. Anyway, the one thing I would have liked to mention that I forgot to is, it’s all about the OIL. Russia refused to let us do whatever we wanted in the 90′s and we took our ball and went home. Kazakstan is jumping to give us cheap oil to support their regieme, and a deal with Georgia makes this all possible. Folloe the money, and the oil.

]]> By: Igor http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/#comment-79823 Igor Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:58:01 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=770#comment-79823 SputnikLee: I know who Ivan the Terrible is. The question is, is it relevant today? Like, to compare, USA have being built on genocide of native indians, is it still relevant today? You don't trace Iraq to indian wars, do you? SputnikLee:

I know who Ivan the Terrible is. The question is, is it relevant today? Like, to compare, USA have being built on genocide of native indians, is it still relevant today? You don’t trace Iraq to indian wars, do you?

]]> By: Igor http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/#comment-79822 Igor Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:55:49 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=770#comment-79822 Kudos to Stephen Cohen, he really knows his stuff, which is rare, and he is also not afraid of talking straight, which is even rarer :-( In all, without him the program would be a total waste of time. Kudos to Stephen Cohen, he really knows his stuff, which is rare, and he is also not afraid of talking straight, which is even rarer :-(

In all, without him the program would be a total waste of time.

]]> By: SputnikLee http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/#comment-79821 SputnikLee Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:52:05 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=770#comment-79821 Igor, Ivan IV (the 'Terrible') was the first tsar to move beyond attaching neighboring ethnic Russian satrapies to Moscow, and to conquer an adjacent, non-Russian polity. This was in large measure to secure the eastern frontier. How is this relevant to current events? Well, the process continued for a few centuries, the 20th century USSR's experience as heir to the Russian Empire proceeded on the same basis, and today the Russian Federation is treating Georgia (among other nations, such as Ukraine) in the same fashion. Russia hasn't learned a basic lesson of its own history, and has continued to repeat it. Igor, Ivan IV (the ‘Terrible’) was the first tsar to move beyond attaching neighboring ethnic Russian satrapies to Moscow, and to conquer an adjacent, non-Russian polity. This was in large measure to secure the eastern frontier. How is this relevant to current events? Well, the process continued for a few centuries, the 20th century USSR’s experience as heir to the Russian Empire proceeded on the same basis, and today the Russian Federation is treating Georgia (among other nations, such as Ukraine) in the same fashion. Russia hasn’t learned a basic lesson of its own history, and has continued to repeat it.

]]> By: Igor http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/#comment-79820 Igor Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:46:27 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=770#comment-79820 Ancient memory? What ancient memory? It has been rewritted several times according to dominant ideology of the times, we don't need to read Orwell, we lived it... It's all ideology and propaganda, the same as everywhere, maybe even more. Ancient memory? What ancient memory? It has been rewritted several times according to dominant ideology of the times, we don’t need to read Orwell, we lived it… It’s all ideology and propaganda, the same as everywhere, maybe even more.

]]> By: Igor http://www.radioopensource.org/the-georgia-and-russia-off-our-minds/#comment-79819 Igor Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:35:15 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/?p=770#comment-79819 SputnikLee: How exactly Ivan the Terrible is relevant to current events? How about B*sh the Terrible? SputnikLee:

How exactly Ivan the Terrible is relevant to current events? How about B*sh the Terrible?

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