So we’re closing this thread to more comments. Any leftover sermons and ire can be directed at tonight’s Immigration show… or at Beckett. He can take it.

Nikos- Thanks for that link to the article on Rachel Corrie. Here it is again if anyone is interested. It’s good. http://bsd.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/09/ma_497_01.html

No moral high ground there for anybody. But that was 2003. Since then Israel has withdrawn from Gaza.

WPGIT- to speak only of killing Jewish children I find immoral. Children have been killed on both sides and the numbers tell a story. Every single child lost to this war (or any war) is sorrowful. What if someone set up a web site that “whyIsraelisJewsgetitwrong” and made crude jokes about the death of Tali Hatuel and her four children or the Passover suicide bombing in Netanya? Beyond the pale? You bet. Yet you allow yourself this exceptionalism with all sorts of rationalizations. This passtime is puerile in my opinion, detrimental to your cause and in the end reflects on you . The lesson, the point, that Rachel Corrie may have been naive and misguided or plain wrong gets lost since the focus seems to be your “sense of humorâ€? which does not generate peaceful responses.

I am also struck that the Rachel Corrie story seems to have resonated so on both sides. It’s ironic that ostensibly her cause was peace but her actions and the resistance actions of the ISM did not result in much progress towards that end, in fact the opposite may be the case. She and her group simply took sides.

WPGIT There were not many Jews who never left although there was enough of a presence. Arabs do not have the right of return to Israel as it stands now- nor will they ever as far as I can see ( nor perhaps should they). Jews do and will. So what are you arguing (complaining) about? That some feel that this is not fair or right?

In the telling of history you have to take into account that Jews were seen by Arabs and Muslims as European invaders, colonizers. Arabs then were not about to or ready to simply move over one notch. Jews were more desperate as they were chased from place to place over time. Some even here and now don’t see or want to know about this history and the perennial attitudes towards Jews- so the defending, so the paranoia.. Thus as they returned to Zion, determined not to take it anymore and declare a homeland in their ancient one, you have the wars and the massacres.

When you read history from both sides, you can see that there has been quite a lot of movement towards accepting Jewish presence/existence as a state. There come a point even just in a discussion where you have to let go of history too. It informs but exerts a drag as well.

You should check out David Grossman’s book “Death as a Way of Life”. It’s a small book, easy read but the case he makes is a powerful one.

Dayan, thanks for your honesty. Israel had much more moral high ground in this conflict, many years ago but it was always going to be difficult. Maybe things are moving in that direction again. But good luck to you. I hope you keep your heart open. Many hearts have closed forever and worse, there are generations coming with the effects transferred down (like blacks here in the USA).

Carroll-You ( Jacqueline Rose) make some good points. There is no more valuable criticism than self-criticism. Israelis and Jews have plenty of it. Playing the underdog does not work so well. Maybe the self-criticism is a sign of success, not feeling so besieged, powerless. Neurosis on both sides fuels the conflict. I think this conflict can be (probably best) seen as psychological problems.

I hope, when you do your historical research, which should go back further than the late 1890′s if you want to understand roots, you take in more than one point of view on it as well. The UN resolutions and the various British documents are not a be-all end-all. (Look at the politics in the UN itself!) From your wording I already sense a bias which is always troublesome to me. I admire those who are inclined in one direction but stretch themselves a bit to see hear feel the other. For me, that spells hope. But again- your points are taken.

Sidewalker We have more posters popping in “to say hello� and will have as the show catches on. Get your disinfectant and rubber gloves ready.

Digitalcommuter? Is that you? (Speaking of neurosis.)

You write: “Most proporting to support Israel also do not have any factual understanding or education on the history of the region from the inception of zionism in the late 1890’s to the creation of israel by the UN thru the mid 20th century to the present conditions”

But Carrol, once one understands this issue, it is clear that many, many Jews returend to Israel during this time to join the many Jews who had never left. I mean, if Arabs have the right of return, then don’t Jews? Or do you hold Jews to a different, less standard then Arabs and act in anti-Semitic ways?

So ok, now there is population with an Arab majority and a HUGE Jewish minority, around 33-35%. So, the UN decides to investiage because the Brits announce they can’t handle the scene anymore and are giving it to the UN. The Arabs (future Palestinians) boycott all contact with the UN and the Jews show the UN all of their schools, hospitals, irrigations, farming, science labs, etc. So, the UN rightly decides, two people, two states. The Jews accept and the Arabs declare war. Jews know how to share, the future Palestinians did not and still do not know how to share.

Come check out my site to learn more about hisotry. http://whypalestiniansgetitwrong.blogspot.com/

Coming back and looking over commets here several things stand out:

# Many who claim to be zionist or jewish or israeli supporters display a great deal of racism and are clearly bigots concerning the Arabs and anyone else including gentiles who critize Israel or their lobby and well known academic jews writting factually about Israeli and the Israeli lobby that they slur as “self hating” jews.

# Most proporting to support Israel also do not have any factual understanding or education on the history of the region from the inception of zionism in the late 1890′s to the creation of israel by the UN thru the mid 20th century to the present conditions. They should go to the trouble of reading the offical documents and memos and papers in the British National Archive and thru the Presidential libaries starting with Truman’s to understand the formaton of jewish/israeli political movement in america, as well as the UN resolutions against israel concerning international law and occupations.

# It is also obvious that some jews and others such as evangelicals fall into the “communal neurosis” described by Jacqueline Rose, herself a jew, in her book “A Question of Zion” ..which is an excellent look at how some jews and other religious are attracted to the “victimhood” and “seperateness” of the jewish history and find a home for their individual neurosis in the collective neurosis of Zionism as they feel it puts them in a “special” catagory and makes their personal neurosis legitmate. She shows zionism attracts people, as any cult does ,who are already predeposed to a movement that gives a home to their feeling of victimhood and desire to “become strong and agressive” to make up for the previous history of powerlessness and weakness that they identify with. Much like the weakling who finally attaining some muscles goes back to the beach to kick sand in the burly lifeguard’s face. This is a trait in any race or religion that person can fall into as witnessed by the many christian cults that exist. The current claim of certain christians groups in america that they are being “perscuted” is a an excellent example of this type of identification.

# Just as nazi Germany was an abboration of society, radical Israel is also an abboration of victimhood morphed into “violence as revenge for past powerlessness”, just as the movement to intertwine American and Israel as one will be viewed as an political abboration in history.

And it is worth stating that all abborations eventually fall apart because the individuals it attracts are at heart self destructive as neurotics are when their tendencies and behavior are not checked and controlled.

The reason for my post above is that I sometimes pick up the headlines in Japan on the site linked below and the comments in this thread are dipping to the level found there. So far, ROS has not been so burdened by hate speech and I’m sure it would break all of our guttersniping hearts if these threads were so degraded.

http://www.crisscross.com/jp/