Anyway did your predictions “all over the web� before the war include this?

“Young black males have a greater chance of being murdered in Philadelphia than a US soldier has of getting killed in the Iraq!”

But that has no relevance to Iraq

Philadelphia is part of the US so we have an obligation to endure whatever costs are associated with straightening it out. We are, as it were, stuck with Philadelphia. We are not stuck with Iraq. We gave the Iraqi people the opportunity (at HUGE costs to ourselves) to have a peaceful, prosperous democracy – but they would clearly rather blow each other up and we should leave them to do so in peace.

I would also suggest that if we put ANYTHING CLOSE to the resources we’ve put into Iraq into Philadelphia we would have cleaned up that place long ago.

You comments are a total nonsequitur. The bottom line is this: Bush and Co. told us what we were getting into before the invasion and they lied. They have no credible plan to deal with this. This car is a lemon sold to us by a lying car salesman and we should dump it by the side of the road.

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/08/philadelphia-quagmire-story.html

Anyway did your predictions “all over the web” before the war include this?

“Young black males have a greater chance of being murdered in Philadelphia than a US soldier has of getting killed in the Iraq!
From the Washington Post:

The death rate for African American men ages 20 to 34 in Philadelphia was 4.37 per 1,000 in 2002, 11 percent higher than among troops in Iraq. Slightly more than half the Philadelphia deaths were homicides.

Murtha (WD – or plnelson or Chirs) has yet to call for a Cut and Run from Philly.”

plnelson – maybe this is what the Lt Col was talking about when he said that these soldiers were have first hand knowledge of while individuals like you would reamain ignorant of?

Here are the facts that these guys will know

“US military fatalities are down in the first 7 months of 2006 (average of 57 per month) compared to last 7 months of 2005 (average of 73 per month). This is easily confirmed by going here (see link on blog below)”

“The number of US fatalities from IEDs is down in the first 7 months of 2006 (average of 32 per month) compared to last 7 months of 2005 (average of 42 per month), this despite the fact that more IEDs are being placed (incompetently, perhaps). This is easily confirmed by going here (see link on blog below)”

“Iraqi military and police casualties are down in the first 7 months of 2006 (average of 177 per month) compared to last 7 months of 2005 (average of 243 per month). Again, you can confirm this yourself by going here (see link on blog below)”

“The number of US wounded is down in the first 7 months of 2006 (average of 425 per month) compared to last 7 months of 2005 (average of 499 per month). This is easily confirmed by going here (see link on blog below)”

” Back Talk adds:

I am surprised that the New York Times (WD – and plnelson) cannot even be trusted to consult readily available data that can be easily examined to evaluate their judgment of the strength of the insurgency.

Ouch!… and yet, so true!”

WD – Back to you mr plnelson.

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/08/honest-look-at-security-situation-in.html

“Military Stryker vehicles saturating Baghdad’s most dangerous neighborhoods have been credited with what Iraqi authorities say is a 30 percent drop in violence in the city since the deployment of 5,000 additional U.S. troops to the region,” ABC News reports from the Iraqi capital:

While U.S. figures show a 22 percent drop in violence, either way, its good news for the troops.

“It’s been great. We get a lot of smiles and waves,” said Lt. Patrick Paterson of the 114th Cavalry.

One of the most dramatic changes has occurred in the Dora neighborhood. In July up to 20 people were killed in the area every day. As part of this new military effort, U.S. and Iraqi troops have been searching thousands of buildings in an effort to stop car bombs. . . .

And there are signs it’s working. During 14 days of patrols in Dora, there has been just one killing.

We look forward to hearing Rep. John Murtha, the Democrats’ leading military strategist, explain how this could be better done from Okinawa.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/IraqCoverage/story?id=2344042

WSD – And I bet Congressman Murtha will call the world renowned miltiary strategist, hell all-around strategist and thinker, plnelson to testify.

You are self paraody.

Germany didn’t have it’s first democratic election until almost 5 years after the end of WWII – Iaq had 3 in less than 3 years. These facts are well known by the US military that made them possible.

S Korea was a military dictatorship until 1988. Now it’s the world’s 10th largest economies with a society that most of Asia wishes that they had.

But a genious like you would have argued, during all of these periods of thier history, that it was a quagmire, that the resources and loss of life had to be justified etc etc.

You are who the Lt Col was talking about and he didn’t have to list all of the facts because he, and many others know them.

Why don’t you ridiculously argue, once again, about how the US lost the ground war in Vietnam while you also try to explain why you think that this is a quagmire? You know why you won’t? Because you would look as stupid in the second argument as you did while making the first.

That is what LT Col White was talking about when he referred to YOU, I say this again YOU as the one with a “head . . . full of empty theories�

You write a lot but say little.

Again, this is just empty rhetoric if he doesn’t back up those slogans with hard data.

The bottom line is that this military that was supposedly in grasp of th “facts” FAILED to predict this quagmire. NO ONE in the military publically indicated at the beginning of the invasion that years later we’d still be stuck in a mess like the one we have now, trying to keep order in a broken, violent, anarchic society teetering on the verge of civil war (if not already in one).

But **I** predicted it, very publically, all over the ‘Net. So let’s compare track records before we talk about who has a better grasp of the facts.

Since the Administration predicated their whole invasion on stopping the deaths of civilians and restoring Iraq as a siocially and economically funtioning society, I think the facts I cited are the exactly relevant ones.

As I said above, if you think you can cite objective reasons to think this thing is working and that if we stay the course it will soon start to get better, feel free to do so.

As I said, we are being asked to pay for this in objectively real lives and money, so the Administration is obligated to justify it with objectively real data showing some light at the end of the tunnel.

Jsut like the guy in another thread that tried to argue idiotically the the US lost the ground war in Vietnam.

plnelson says “Don’t you find it interesting how many generals, once they retire or return from tours of duty there, suddenly become a lot more critical of the effort?

What is really telling is that the vast majority of those generals who are critical alos say that support Bush and would have fought the war even knowing what they know now.

That is the false dichotomy that the Dems / run away crowd don’t understand. Being critical of the war doesn’t necessarliy mena that you oppose it. The VAST majority of my friends still on active duty in the military are critical of specifics about the war yet support it.

And I love your claims about “objective facts” and a great example is Marx. He and his methods of politcal economics are still studied because in most all limited situations they are usefull in performing analysis’ yet when placed together in total they are, of course, garbage. Emperically, they are proven to give worthless solutions.

So, taking a limited set of what you call “objective” facts and trying to come up with an answer is jsut as worthless as Marx’s.

Let me let the LT Col tell you what your “facts” are worth – and guess what, he isn’t an idiot who thinks that we lost the ground war in Vietnam.

“Men, don’t ever think, for one minute, that the kids running around on some university campus, protesting complaining or whining about this that or the other, have anything on you. You are privileged to have the one thing that they all covet. You will know, you will have facts about goings on in Iraq, Afghanistan, Djibouti, the Philippines, Balkans and many other places.”

Hey plnelson – I am SURE that he is talking about you here!

This is an astoundingly weird statement.

Personal subjective belief is more concrete that hard data?

If you are making a huge personal commitment, or assuming huge personal risks, it is human nature to believe in what you’re doing. And if you are doing so in an environment where your leaders are reinforcing that message, and especially under circumstances where a military esprit de corps discourages open dissent very few people are likely to outwardly express disagreement with them so they will postly hear a positive message.

All of us fall victim to this. Last weekend I was visiting my Army nephew and my niece, whose boyfriend is Special Forces and recently returned from Iraq, and I did not mention my dissent with the war in our conversation because I didn’t want to undermine their morale. The last thing you want to do is send your personal soldier into a war telling him you don’t believe in what he’s doing. I’ve talked to other military relatives who say they do the same thing.

“Your nephew is a man Respect him and his decision.”

He’s 19 years old. He doesn’t have enough perspective and hasn’t studied enough history to be appropriately skeptical of Commanders in Chiefs.

The ordinary soldiers on the ground are the least objective sources of information on this. Subjectivity is never as good as objective data. Subjectively the world is flat. Subjectively there are plenty of drugs that people swear up and down helped them, but objective medical tests prove work no better than a placebo.

“I would rather us not be in Iraq but i’m going to rely on the generals.”

Don’t you find it interesting how many generals, once they retire or return from tours of duty there, suddenly become a lot more critical of the effort?

Anyway, I’m not relying on “reporters with an agenda” either. Just the facts, ma’am: Number of people killed or injured, billions of dollars spent, oil produced (or not produced), electricity produced (or not produced), sectarian attacks, etc. Those are real and concrete. The Administration has every opportunity to produce the real and concrete benefits to justify those costs, but they don’t, because, frankly, they can’t.

not some reporter with an agenda or an academic who has never worked a day in his life outside a college campus.

“I think Lt Col White is just calling it like he sees it. ”

———-

The fact that he may believe is what he’s doing, and the fact that he’s “calling it like he sees it” doesn’t really add anything to the debate. Of course he’s going to believe in his mission. It’s human nature that if you make a huge personal or professional committment to somehing you will be inclined to justify it emotionally.

But the BOTTOM LINE is the hard cold facts, the numbers, the data. They do not paint a picture of success, or eventual success.

Also, what is the significance of the fact that the violence is only happening in certain places and not others? During the American Civil War there were plenty of places where, at any given time, there was no violence, and plenty of places where at NO POINT was there violence. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a war.

The costs of the war, in US lives, in Iraqi lives, in our nation’s image abroad, and in our tax dollars, are REAL and CONCRETE. The risks of emboldening the bad guys if we leave are speculative. I’m an engineer with a science background so, to me, real and concrete beat speculative any day.

I have a nephew in the Army who’s actually HOPING to go to Iraq. Obviously we don’t want him to go because we’re afarid he’ll be killed or wounded. I think at this point, the onus is on the Administration to PROVE to us that continuing to stay in Iraq is a good idea if they are going to ask us to pay for it with real and concrete tax dollars, and wih the blood of our relatives.

I would.

As we saw this morning in France’s announcement that they were only committing 200 troops to Lebanon, instead of the thousands actually needed, and as we’ve seen in their past refusal to address the Darfur crisis – so as not to offend the Sudanese government with whom they have close commercial ties – France has about as much backbone as an earthworm.

The French have a penchant for meaningless gestures. In May I was in Paris for a writing workshop and I noticed that for an hour in the morning there were French paratroopers stationed outside the Brentano’s (a big American bookstore on Avenue de l’Opera) . They would stay for an hour and then speed off in their military vehicles.

At lunch one day I asked the staff there and they said that it was a show of security to protect the store. The soldiers were only there for an hour a day, and at the time I was talking to the staff I was wearing a backpack filled with books and a laptop PC, big enough that if it was Semtex would have taken out the whole building.

That’s France for you.

But Lt Col White’s comments are just flowery rhetoric. What matters is the hard facts. Killed, wounded, money, time, etc. There is no objective reason to think that the situation in Iraq is heading toward resolution. The number of civilians killed in sectarian violence is going UP.

And NOTHING that has happened – not the civilian casualties, the US casualties, the number of troops we have there, the financial cost, or anything else was predicted by the Administration or its neocon supporters when the war was first proposed, which does nothing for their credibility. So why should we believe them now?

This does not suggest to me that we’re winning the “war on terror”.

A study published a few days ago in the UK shows support for terrorism in the Muslim community there has INCREASED, especially among women and college students.

Meanwhile Iraq is either on the verge of civil war, or already in one, depending on whom you ask. None of this suggests that the Bush/Blair team has anything resembling a clue how to proceed. Both Blair and Bush are in their last terms and there is every indication that when they leave office the terrorists and Islamofascists will be stronger than ever!

It’s hard to imagine how the GOP can spin this into a reason why they should remain in charge.

This is a real person with crediblity talking to a group of other individuals who after 1 day in Iraq will have more credibility when talking about what is going on there than all of the Staff of OS and everyone that writes on this blog.

And what I find interesting is how he, his words and this video stand in stark contrast to the idiotic people, words and videos of the people who supported Lamont. Just witness the video of the victory speach by Lamont with the grinning goons Sharpton and Jackson standing next to him.

I beleive that the following remarks answer your question pretty well.

These are portions of remarks by Lt Col Randal C White Jr. Commanding Officer 2nd Battalion 58th Infantry to the graduating class of the Infantry School in Ft Benning, GA.

“Men, don’t ever think, for one minute, that the kids running around on some university campus, protesting complaining or whining about this that or the other, have anything on you. You are privileged to have the one thing that they all covet. You will know, you will have facts about goings on in Iraq, Afghanistan, Djibouti, the Philippines, Balkans and many other places.

Your head will not be full of empty theories like those who know very little because they lack the intestinal fortitude to commit to anything that requires personal risk. I am speaking of the snide arrogant sort who spend the day blaming America for every wrong in the world before going home to sleep at night under the blanket of freedom provided by better men. Better men like you.

(WD – This is the part I like because I think that the Lt Col is now talking directly, unambiguously and most confidently to Chris Lydon and people like him. I wonder if Chris might look at these comments and use them constructively to work on his “intentionsâ€?? http://www.radioopensource.org/be-a-source/open-source-chris-lydon-explains/ )

Don’t let the pessimistic television talking heads, high brow newspaper writers, Hollywood idiots or any other faction of the blame America first crowd get you down. I am speaking here of the biscotti, latte crowd. They are sitting in the background shadows men and they will always be on the periphery of any endeavor that requires selfless service or loyalty. They are not worthy of your concern.

And the truth be told, in the pit of their cowardly hearts they wish that they cold be just like you. The intestinal fortitude that is a part of your fabric is something that they covet but will never know.”

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/15/lt-col-randolph-c-white-a-great-american/

If it was a referendum on Bush then he just got 48% . . . . in Democratic Primary!!!

Deny–run–hide–surrender–collaborate.

Yes, I would be. Chirac said a months ago that France would react with nuclear bombs if it suffered a terrorist attack of major proportions.

France has never been shy about using force to defend itself (often ineptly) no matter what the perception at the National Review.

I am not suprised that you are keyboard analyst and give away your wisdom for free. It’s no worth even a cent.

Fiddlesticks, we’re all keyboard analysts here, you included. Go ahead and continue to disagree with the substance of anyone’s comments, but this stuff doesn’t really add to the conversation.