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	<title>Comments on: The NeoCons: What Were They Thinking?</title>
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	<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/</link>
	<description>Christopher Lydon in conversation on arts, ideas and politics</description>
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		<title>By: jimbob3450</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66438</link>
		<dc:creator>jimbob3450</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66438</guid>
		<description>I think that the question of why the Bush administration chose the particular time to start rattling their sabers is aparticularly significant one.



While I think it is clear that individuals within the administration had plans for Iraq before 911, I think that the timing of the push has an obvious cause. There was no new intelligence that suggested that a crisis was coming, so what was the trigger?



I think it is clear that the proximal cause was the US mid-term elections. While I don&#039;t remember the particular show, I remember a neo-con Bush insider saying on &quot;Fresh Air&quot; something to the effect that the &quot;American people were losing will to fight the War On Terror&quot; and started focusing on things like health-care and other domestic issues. This created the risk that the Republican party might lose the support that they enjoyed as a consequence of the population pulling together behind their leaders after 911.



Pulling the &quot;patiot card&quot; at that time trumped all other arguments. I do not believe that the Democrats were so much &quot;deceived&quot; by the Bush administration as they were cowed by the prospect of trying to justify opposition to an American public that was not inclined to use critical judgement. I hold the Democrats and the American people to blame as much as the administration. Even without access to any classified material it was obvious to anyone who cared to look that the arguments for war were not only unlikely to be true, but that there was no current intelligence suggesting a crisis. The first consequence of the &quot;war talk&quot; was a continued Republican majority, which I would argue was the initial purpose.



As to what the real reasons why the Bush administration wanted to invade Iraq, my guess is that besides the obvious (oil, construction projects for US corporations, etc.) I believe there were a few &quot;noble&quot; reasons (or at least rationalizations). I believe that the players truly believe in the virtues of unfettered capitalism and consumerism (not democracy which they may believe is an unfortunate necessity to allow capitalism). This was truly a &quot;Holy War&quot;, not necessarily a Christian vs. Moslem conflict but a Free-market vs. &quot;any other alternative&quot; war. I believe that the Bush administration unrealistically believed that they could install, not just a democracy, but a particular form of free-market economy which they truly believe would be best for everyone. This is also witnessed by the Bush domestic policies which are desperately attempting to undo every &quot;liberal&quot; economic and environmental policy in place. The desperation is due to their fear that they could not trust the American people to re-elect them.



As to WMD, I think they figured they would probably find some and it would justify the war to the voters. The more they talked about it, the better the idea sounded (easy victory, oil, reconstruction money, elimination of Saddam so that sanctions could be lifted, etc.). Since they don&#039;t listen to anyone outside their own circle these arguments just sounded better and better the more they were repeated.



Anyway the topic for a new discussion is &quot;Why then&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the question of why the Bush administration chose the particular time to start rattling their sabers is aparticularly significant one.</p>
<p>While I think it is clear that individuals within the administration had plans for Iraq before 911, I think that the timing of the push has an obvious cause. There was no new intelligence that suggested that a crisis was coming, so what was the trigger?</p>
<p>I think it is clear that the proximal cause was the US mid-term elections. While I don&#8217;t remember the particular show, I remember a neo-con Bush insider saying on &#8220;Fresh Air&#8221; something to the effect that the &#8220;American people were losing will to fight the War On Terror&#8221; and started focusing on things like health-care and other domestic issues. This created the risk that the Republican party might lose the support that they enjoyed as a consequence of the population pulling together behind their leaders after 911.</p>
<p>Pulling the &#8220;patiot card&#8221; at that time trumped all other arguments. I do not believe that the Democrats were so much &#8220;deceived&#8221; by the Bush administration as they were cowed by the prospect of trying to justify opposition to an American public that was not inclined to use critical judgement. I hold the Democrats and the American people to blame as much as the administration. Even without access to any classified material it was obvious to anyone who cared to look that the arguments for war were not only unlikely to be true, but that there was no current intelligence suggesting a crisis. The first consequence of the &#8220;war talk&#8221; was a continued Republican majority, which I would argue was the initial purpose.</p>
<p>As to what the real reasons why the Bush administration wanted to invade Iraq, my guess is that besides the obvious (oil, construction projects for US corporations, etc.) I believe there were a few &#8220;noble&#8221; reasons (or at least rationalizations). I believe that the players truly believe in the virtues of unfettered capitalism and consumerism (not democracy which they may believe is an unfortunate necessity to allow capitalism). This was truly a &#8220;Holy War&#8221;, not necessarily a Christian vs. Moslem conflict but a Free-market vs. &#8220;any other alternative&#8221; war. I believe that the Bush administration unrealistically believed that they could install, not just a democracy, but a particular form of free-market economy which they truly believe would be best for everyone. This is also witnessed by the Bush domestic policies which are desperately attempting to undo every &#8220;liberal&#8221; economic and environmental policy in place. The desperation is due to their fear that they could not trust the American people to re-elect them.</p>
<p>As to WMD, I think they figured they would probably find some and it would justify the war to the voters. The more they talked about it, the better the idea sounded (easy victory, oil, reconstruction money, elimination of Saddam so that sanctions could be lifted, etc.). Since they don&#8217;t listen to anyone outside their own circle these arguments just sounded better and better the more they were repeated.</p>
<p>Anyway the topic for a new discussion is &#8220;Why then&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Mantho</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66437</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Mantho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66437</guid>
		<description>FYI/FWIW,

adding to Mr. Packer&#039;s analysis -- a bit old by now, yet perhaps of value,



 http://www.comw.org/pda/fulltext/0404mantho.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI/FWIW,</p>
<p>adding to Mr. Packer&#8217;s analysis &#8212; a bit old by now, yet perhaps of value,</p>
<p> <a  href="http://www.comw.org/pda/fulltext/0404mantho.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.comw.org/pda/fulltext/0404mantho.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Raymond</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66436</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 12:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66436</guid>
		<description>As I listened to George Packer challenge Chris based on George&#039;s personal experience on the ground in Iraq, I could not help but think that group think is not isolated among the neo-cons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I listened to George Packer challenge Chris based on George&#8217;s personal experience on the ground in Iraq, I could not help but think that group think is not isolated among the neo-cons.</p>
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		<title>By: desertrose</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66435</link>
		<dc:creator>desertrose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 10:38:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66435</guid>
		<description>What seems to be missing from the discussion about Iraq is the US is not a charity organization that just loves to do good other nations, by deploying troops in every corner of the planet.  And maintaining military bases in more than thirty countries in any given time.  The truth is, the US is a superpower that looks out for its own interests, whether locals in those countries like it or not, through supporting corrupt elite governments that rule their people with an iron fist.



How would American citizens feel if they are bombed day and night? And would they have been happy to see foreign troops from countries, many canâ€™t even locate on the map, rooming their streets, searching their pockets, homes, and every facets of their lives.  Setting check points in many streets, people arrested and thrown into prisons without due process.  Practically, transforming the country into a big prison.



Iraqi people donâ€™t suffer amentia! it was only recent history when the British colonials said the same thing â€“ we here to spread democracy /sh*tocracy.  Surely they have not forgotten that.  Whether the executer of those policies are Neo cons or others, thatâ€™s totally irrelevant to the folks who are at the receiving end of the bombs, oppression â€¦because those policies have existed and executed for the past fifty years -  A continuation of where others have left off.



The losers here are the American people are Iraqis</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What seems to be missing from the discussion about Iraq is the US is not a charity organization that just loves to do good other nations, by deploying troops in every corner of the planet.  And maintaining military bases in more than thirty countries in any given time.  The truth is, the US is a superpower that looks out for its own interests, whether locals in those countries like it or not, through supporting corrupt elite governments that rule their people with an iron fist.</p>
<p>How would American citizens feel if they are bombed day and night? And would they have been happy to see foreign troops from countries, many canâ€™t even locate on the map, rooming their streets, searching their pockets, homes, and every facets of their lives.  Setting check points in many streets, people arrested and thrown into prisons without due process.  Practically, transforming the country into a big prison.</p>
<p>Iraqi people donâ€™t suffer amentia! it was only recent history when the British colonials said the same thing â€“ we here to spread democracy /sh*tocracy.  Surely they have not forgotten that.  Whether the executer of those policies are Neo cons or others, thatâ€™s totally irrelevant to the folks who are at the receiving end of the bombs, oppression â€¦because those policies have existed and executed for the past fifty years &#8211;  A continuation of where others have left off.</p>
<p>The losers here are the American people are Iraqis</p>
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		<title>By: oolitic</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66434</link>
		<dc:creator>oolitic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 04:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66434</guid>
		<description>lasitter, I find it interesting (read: laughable) that you complain about an apparent straw man argument, yet seemingly find no problem with a justtification for war that is ever shifting.



It was the WMD, now it&#039;s because Hussein was bad. Well that was not how the war was sold to congress. A detail that is _important_.



I like the way you then sell your argument in much the way our Big Brother adminsitration does -- through scare tactics and hyperbole.



Mushroom cloud? what&#039;s the connection? The 9/11 commision, diluted by GOP pap, still managed to come up with the banal finding that there was no connection between nukes and Iraq. Must not have made it onto http://www.drudgereport.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lasitter, I find it interesting (read: laughable) that you complain about an apparent straw man argument, yet seemingly find no problem with a justtification for war that is ever shifting.</p>
<p>It was the WMD, now it&#8217;s because Hussein was bad. Well that was not how the war was sold to congress. A detail that is _important_.</p>
<p>I like the way you then sell your argument in much the way our Big Brother adminsitration does &#8212; through scare tactics and hyperbole.</p>
<p>Mushroom cloud? what&#8217;s the connection? The 9/11 commision, diluted by GOP pap, still managed to come up with the banal finding that there was no connection between nukes and Iraq. Must not have made it onto <a  href="http://www.drudgereport.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.drudgereport.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: A little yellow bird</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66433</link>
		<dc:creator>A little yellow bird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 00:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66433</guid>
		<description>Which early US president said that &quot;...we do not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy...&quot;? What are we doing in Iraq and fourscore and seven other countries around the globe? Why are we in Okinawa sixty years after WWII? Or Germany? Can we please give Diego Garcia back to the people we stole it from? Oh, no...we can&#039;t--they&#039;re dead. Why is a single US service member anywhere other than within the legal borders of the US? Is it because of a desire for a kind of international corporate hegemony with a US brand on its haunches? By the way, no partisanship intended, but Slick Willie Clinton killed a lot more people with the Iraq trade sanctions than W., the trust-fund legacy, has--although that will change soon, when the Lonestar Yankee nukes Iran...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which early US president said that &#8220;&#8230;we do not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy&#8230;&#8221;? What are we doing in Iraq and fourscore and seven other countries around the globe? Why are we in Okinawa sixty years after WWII? Or Germany? Can we please give Diego Garcia back to the people we stole it from? Oh, no&#8230;we can&#8217;t&#8211;they&#8217;re dead. Why is a single US service member anywhere other than within the legal borders of the US? Is it because of a desire for a kind of international corporate hegemony with a US brand on its haunches? By the way, no partisanship intended, but Slick Willie Clinton killed a lot more people with the Iraq trade sanctions than W., the trust-fund legacy, has&#8211;although that will change soon, when the Lonestar Yankee nukes Iran&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: plaintext</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66432</link>
		<dc:creator>plaintext</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 00:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66432</guid>
		<description>The NEOCONS are the new poster boys for human rights?  I guess that makes Kim Jong Il  - Mother Theresa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The NEOCONS are the new poster boys for human rights?  I guess that makes Kim Jong Il  &#8211; Mother Theresa.</p>
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		<title>By: Stilgar</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66431</link>
		<dc:creator>Stilgar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 00:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66431</guid>
		<description>plaintext, you dont mess with the people who have all of your oil...oil to us is as important to our culture as the buffelo was to the native plains dwellers of north america...yet they worshiped the buffelo and had an intricate reverence for it, we on the other hand just bitch when gas prices get too high.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>plaintext, you dont mess with the people who have all of your oil&#8230;oil to us is as important to our culture as the buffelo was to the native plains dwellers of north america&#8230;yet they worshiped the buffelo and had an intricate reverence for it, we on the other hand just bitch when gas prices get too high.</p>
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		<title>By: Nikos</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66430</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 00:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66430</guid>
		<description>plaintext, the recent book Sleeping With The Devil (by former CIA agent Bob Baer) answers your query.  It&#039;s a quick read too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>plaintext, the recent book Sleeping With The Devil (by former CIA agent Bob Baer) answers your query.  It&#8217;s a quick read too.</p>
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		<title>By: plaintext</title>
		<link>http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66429</link>
		<dc:creator>plaintext</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 00:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.radioopensource.org/the-neocons-what-were-they-thinking/#comment-66429</guid>
		<description>Does the NEOCON philosophy require us to be  lenient to the Saudis but not to the Iraqis?  Has this been beneficial in some way to any but a select number of oil company stock holders?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does the NEOCON philosophy require us to be  lenient to the Saudis but not to the Iraqis?  Has this been beneficial in some way to any but a select number of oil company stock holders?</p>
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