I just felt compelled to pass this on as people still don’t seem to know about Wonder Showzen while Borat has exploded. Maybe everyone is not ready for Wondershozen yet as it can be beyond “cringe” but isn’t that what Borat really wants?

many Americans seem to have had an irony bypass

this thread has got rather serious of late considering it’s intentions

Jazzman! I see you are capable of humor!

Let me prepare you for your prospective tour of Planet Jazzman:

On Planet Jazzman, Consciousness, Energy and Matter are manifestations of each other and interchangeable. There is no religion, supernatural entities, or fear; people are peace loving and do not feel the need to dishonestly trick others for their amusement or profit.

People take responsibility for what ever situation in which they find themselves and ideally live by the following code: ABSOLUTE MORALITY

1) Do Respect and Honor ALL Life/Nature. EVERYTHING in the universe has purpose, meaning, and an innate right to exist. (No need to invoke God or Evolution)

2) Do EMPATHIZE with others in all transactions. Consider the effect of your actions vis a vis others. Don’t take advantage of people via trickery or superior intellect. This is the root of the Golden Rule – no vengeful tit for tat.

3) Do not kill more than is needed for physical sustenance. I believe that most people would agree that the deprivation of life for gluttony is less than ideal and should be discouraged.

4) Do not commit violence on yourself or others, life, or the environment. Violence is a result of unexpressed pent up aggression, fostered by a sense of powerlessness to attain desires by the incompetent, ignorant or impatient and NEVER justified.

5) Do not attempt to attain an IDEAL by violating any of the above propositions. The “All of the above” Meta-rule – IDEAL ENDS NEVER JUSTIFY LESS THAN IDEAL MEANS.

Peace to ALL – this is my last post until at least the week after Thanksgiving.

Jazzman

And, since I no longer want to be boring any remaining lurkers with this rapidly drying exchange of opinion, I am going to sign off here. Good evening.

(Frankly, now I’m starting to suspect that “jazzman” is just a baiting arguebot and it is I who am the “mark”. Damn! This blogversation better not appear in Borat 2: Cultural Learning On the Internets For Make Benefit Glorious Site of Radio Open Source)

Not only the situation, but also “real people” are manipulated thru dishonesty by the person with the upper hand which is a violation of their personal rights.

I would suggest that a healthy sense of humor is one that can find the “correct” reaction,

Who defines the “correct” reaction? Correct in your eyes and healthy in your opinion as it is with all value judgments. There is no moral correctness in value judgments – only beliefs about right and wrong.

What does comedic taste say, if anything, about a society?

It says volumes about peoples motivations and character. De gustibus non est disputandum (seeing as you are fond of Latin albeit of the porcine variety) If it is taste and not schadenfreude – feel good humor due to the misfortunes of actual people rather than the conceptual let’s say these misfortunes occurred hypothetically and present it as comedy then it is a question of taste. When it is not hypothetical then comedic taste has overtones of meanness and lack of empathy and reflects callousness in the strata of society that finds such things amusing.

BTW Marks do not make themselves, it take 2 to tango and requires an imbalance of power as in the confidence trickster and the mark. Once engaged the mark bears responsibility for his/her part in the action but without the initiator there is no mark.

The frat boys slip easily into sexism, and they deserve to be satirized for it.
This is not satire, it is staging a venue under false pretenses to attempt to expose peoples’ biases. Satire is the abstract presentation of analogous situations in a neutral environment – taking the bias to task – not exposing the actual person harboring biases. You judge that they deserve it and so they do by your lights but again you are only the arbiter for yourself and that doesn’t excuse the fact that what you call humor is at others expense.

Those who show kindness are merely straight men for Borat’s insanity. They come off exceptionally well. Kind people are merely kind and will always come off well – let that be an object lesson.

Of course people are self-reflecting! I don’t think that any film released in the last ten years has prompted this level of national discussion about racism, religious bias, and sexism

You are correct that prompting discussions about “negative” biases (the quotes signify that biases may or may not be negative) has the potential for “positive” outcome. This demonstrates that less than ideal actions can stimulate “improvement” but it is still “the end justifies the means” consequentialism. If most people were self reflecting and acted according to the principles of Absolute Morality, the mentioned biases would be harder to find. I don’t credit SBC for altruistically attempting to affect peoples’ biases, if a positive outcome is the result of this drama, it is due to unintended consequences.

It’s very clear that Jazzman is either unfamiliar with SBC’s ouevre, or he watched the film with a very closed mind

I am quite familiar (which breeds contempt) with his oeuvre i.e., Ali G, Bruno, and Borat from HBO and was amused until I figured out that his audience didn’t realize that he was putting them on. The 1st time I saw it, I believed that Ali G’s show was an elaborately staged event with people aware that this was a spoof. I soon saw that had the “guests” realized the nature of the event none of them would have participated. They were Ali G’s “marks” no matter what how your protests to the contrary and Borat’s “marks” are only more numerous and less famous. I wouldn’t pay to watch SBC in a theater and am unlikely to watch when it is on HBO. As for my closed mind, it’s shut to violations of other’s innate rights.

Peace,

Jazzman

Criticizing a public personality informally or in the media is not bullying it is voicing an opinion. Roasting a person while they are present is on or over the line depending of the relationship of the roaster to the roastee. Abusing anyone or Bush to his face, verbally or worse is bullying.

arksmay akemay emselvesthay…
(pardon my declensions, it’s been awhile…)

My quotes weren’t to strengthen my argument which stands on its own. The quotes were to separate the so called comedians whose humor is derived from interactions with actual unsuspecting persons i.e., marks Anytime there is hidden agenda in an interpersonal situation to gain something from another (in this case comedy) there is an imbalance of power and intent making the recipient of the agenda the mark.

Humor is a debatable concept which is product of each of our imaginations. As the arbiter of my opinion, I reserve the label “comedian” for those whose humor doesn’t rely on interpersonal reaction. You say No matter what you think of them, Cohen, Kaufman, Funt and Rickles are all comedians that’s only by your definition and certainly true for you and others who share your opinion; I say they aren’t by mine which is just as true for me and those who share my opinion. The ad populum fallacy does not confer an absolute imprimatur as to what constitutes a comedian nor does arbitrary classification.

Your assertions and implication that I can’t understand the “comedy” of SBC and your belief that I use quotes to strengthen my argument does nothing to support your position.

Again, SBC’s victims are only victims when they make themselves victims. The frat boys slip easily into sexism, and they deserve to be satirized for it.

Those who show kindness are merely straight men for Borat’s insanity. They come off exceptionally well. Christopher brought up the example of the driving instructor — he comes off as a great guy in the film, and it’s hilarious because of Borat, not because Borat is taking the instructor down.

“Is anyone who is laughing also self-reflecting? Or is it just those other people that deserve such disdain? Other than Cohen’s bank account, what has been improved by this film?”

Of course people are self-reflecting! I don’t think that any film released in the last ten years has prompted this level of national discussion about racism, religious bias, and sexism! I just spent forty minutes on a national public radio program (not to be confused with an NPR program) talking about it.

Again, SBC’s comedy is simply *not* about “besting the mark” as Jazzman put it. It’s about something else entirely. Alan Funt’s comedy is about “besting the mark.” It’s very clear that Jazzman is either unfamiliar with SBC’s ouevre, or he watched the film with a very closed mind.

Different strokes for different folks. It is a free country. No one is forced to watch Borat. I haven’t made up my mind yet on him some things i’ve seen by him are funny some are not. Everyone has different tastes.Just like any other form of art or entertainment.

I do agree with you on some of your points.Humor that makes fun of others is a cheap way to get a laugh and it does ferment bullying. But no one has a right to not be offended nor should they. People need to be thicker skinned and act like adults. People need to stop looking for ways to be victimized

Good luck in communist China.

We are all buffoons at times. Have aspects of ourselves that we may not like. We are not as enlightened as we would imagine ourselves. We can easily be judged by others. Which is what everyone who laughs at the real people caught in Cohen’s web are doing: judging others to be worthy of national/international humiliation. Which is not one any of them signed up for. It is a huge distinction.

It can be humor when fictional characters are involved. It can lift a group up by reflecting a low common denominator that we which to rise above. This is what made the Archie Bunker character brilliant. No one wants to be like Archie once they realize how the rest of the world perceives that behavior. But when a real person becomes the target of everybody’s national self-loathing it is not funny.

It’s not that I don’t understand. It’s not the kind of society I want to keep. I find this thread very disheartening. It doesn’t bode well for what we can expect in US culture. We love being smug and self-righteous and assuming that we have the right to deem others unworthy of civility. (The guards at Abu Graib were laughing in much the same way as those who laugh with Cohen.) The popularity of Cohen’s work tells me just how sad to be. The brilliance of it is not what it reveals about his marks, but what it reveals about the spirit of the viewers. The fact that the very idea that it is mean-spirited can’t even be brooked here, a place where we are supposedly pursuing intellectual exploration, is extremely disappointing.

You can find good-hearted humor with your friends and family. Laughing at yourself is probably the best. A laugh shared with a loved one when you both have a moment of realizing how absurd you are is priceless. Laughing at someone is only hurtful. It perpetuates hurtfulness and does not serve any of us well.

Is anyone who is laughing also self-reflecting? Or is it just those other people that deserve such disdain? Other than Cohen’s bank account, what has been improved by this film?

Thank you for chiming in, jazzman. It’s nice to know there is at least one other person willing to consider the destructiveness of this kind of humor.

If you think the comedy of Borat is about “besting the mark,” then you simply haven’t seen Borat, or perhaps you have, and can’t understand it.

If the victims are fictitious as in most TV, film, or radio bits I agree, but when the “victims” (whom I also agree make themselves one) are real, live, persons who are put thru changes by encounters with disingenuous “comedians” such as Borat or Kaufmann or Alan Funt or Don Rickles and suffer in whatever degree from that experience – no matter that they were willing participants (by dint of release signing) and the fact they engaged in the process doesn’t justify that process. Very little comedy relies on live experiment for its laughs – most doesn’t. So it really becomes about the comedians ego in besting the mark for putative “entertainment”

BrassEye
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brass-Eye-Michael-Cumming/dp/B000066NT9/sr=11-1/qid=1163726241/ref=sr_11_1/203-9387015-4979969
(that’s a region-free DVD, meaning you can play it in American DVD players)

Alan Partridge:
http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Me-You-Alan-Partridge/dp/B0009RQRF6/sr=8-2/qid=1163726359/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-7081482-4199213?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

And “The Day Today”, which is currently not available on US DVD (but can be found on the internet if you know where to look )

And, frankly, it would be tough to find much comedy that doesn’t have a victim.

I encourage anyone intruiged by the conversations about comedy to check out my show, which is at http://www.maximumfun.org

This show, for example, deals with some intruiging theories on Kaufman’s relationship with the American Dream:
http://media.libsyn.com/media/tsoya/tsoya021806.mp3

It also features a great convo with the guy who I think most reflects the spirit of Kaufman in 21st century comedy, a comic named Neil Hamburger.

It’s not that the participants in these “reality” vignettes are “victims” per se; they chose to cooperate with SBC in creating the drama. It’s the methods and attitude that uses people as comic fodder, sees them as unsophisticated “rubes”, or seeks advantage over them by dint of superior intellect (‘cause like the dog, he can and SBC is very bright) and intends to humiliate “marks” for ego and profit. Even if one believes the recipients of such petard hoisting deserve their comeuppance, it is NOT ideal to be the aggressor in the mutual drama. When a person acts in an obnoxiously aggressive manner vis a vis others, it often engenders a violent response to which “Borat” can attest. Allison, your pacifism and empathy for the victimized in general is laudable and I agree with your assessment that ”Using someone as a prop for your joke is mean-spirited. Continuing to laugh once you realize this is even more so.” and commend your posts on this subject.

Peace,

Jazzman