Comments on: War with Iran? http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/ Christopher Lydon in conversation on arts, ideas and politics Sun, 05 Sep 2010 00:34:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: jazzman http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9492 jazzman Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:42:22 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9492 Concerning a war with Iran: <b>NO – A THOUSAND TIMES NO</b> The current philosophy (oxymoron) in this administration (end of days cult) seems to echo this Randy Newman ditty. Change the lyrics to suit Iran and it could be Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s philosophy. We would do well to remember that real world logic systems are not formal Quinian symbolic constructs. They are only consistent within each logical belief system. The logic of Islam doesn’t comport with Judeo-Christian logic or what the U.S.A.’s general population would think of as logic (I’m not sure that GW’s logic comports with any other system.) Diplomacy with an acute sensitivity and understanding of the disparate logic systems to achieve common purpose is what is needed to resolve this potentially <i>explosive</i> situation. The neo-con pipe dream of the U.S. Empire must be countered aggressively if our children are to inherit a world worth inheriting. <b><i>Political Science</i></b> by Randy Newman No one likes us-I don't know why We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try But all around, even our old friends put us down Let's drop the big one and see what happens We give them money-but are they grateful? No, they're spiteful and they're hateful They don't respect us-so let's surprise them We'll drop the big one and pulverize them Asia's crowded and Europe's too old Africa is far too hot And Canada's too cold And South America stole our name Let's drop the big one There'll be no one left to blame us We'll save Australia Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo We'll build an All American amusement park there They got surfin', too Boom goes London and boom Paree More room for you and more room for me And every city the whole world round Will just be another American town Oh, how peaceful it will be We'll set everybody free You'll wear a Japanese kimono And there'll be Italian shoes for me They all hate us anyhow So let's drop the big one now Let's drop the big one now. <b>Let’s NOT</b> Peace to ALL Concerning a war with Iran: NO – A THOUSAND TIMES NO The current philosophy (oxymoron) in this administration (end of days cult) seems to echo this Randy Newman ditty. Change the lyrics to suit Iran and it could be Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s philosophy. We would do well to remember that real world logic systems are not formal Quinian symbolic constructs. They are only consistent within each logical belief system. The logic of Islam doesn’t comport with Judeo-Christian logic or what the U.S.A.’s general population would think of as logic (I’m not sure that GW’s logic comports with any other system.) Diplomacy with an acute sensitivity and understanding of the disparate logic systems to achieve common purpose is what is needed to resolve this potentially explosive situation. The neo-con pipe dream of the U.S. Empire must be countered aggressively if our children are to inherit a world worth inheriting.

Political Science by Randy Newman

No one likes us-I don’t know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let’s drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they’re spiteful and they’re hateful
They don’t respect us-so let’s surprise them
We’ll drop the big one and pulverize them
Asia’s crowded and Europe’s too old

Africa is far too hot
And Canada’s too cold
And South America stole our name
Let’s drop the big one
There’ll be no one left to blame us

We’ll save Australia
Don’t wanna hurt no kangaroo
We’ll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin’, too

Boom goes London and boom Paree
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We’ll set everybody free
You’ll wear a Japanese kimono
And there’ll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let’s drop the big one now
Let’s drop the big one now.

Let’s NOT Peace to ALL

]]> By: nother http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9435 nother Wed, 12 Apr 2006 01:07:41 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9435 Whoops! - "rhetoric", "exchanged", "concerning" Whoops! – “rhetoric”, “exchanged”, “concerning”

]]> By: nother http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9433 nother Wed, 12 Apr 2006 01:04:04 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9433 We saw worse rethoric echanged with the old Soviet Union. Ronald Reagan was secure enough in himself as a man and a leader to personally engage. Can you imagine if Bush Jr. said he would like to have a meeting (summit) with Ahmadinejad. At least give these guys the dignity of discourse. If we treat them with dignity, they might act with dignity. As far a Chris's post game concering "history actors." I bring back the following quote: “Whoever today speaks of human existence in terms of power, efficiency, and ‘’historical tasks'’ is an actual or potential assassin.� -Albert Camus We saw worse rethoric echanged with the old Soviet Union. Ronald Reagan was secure enough in himself as a man and a leader to personally engage. Can you imagine if Bush Jr. said he would like to have a meeting (summit) with Ahmadinejad. At least give these guys the dignity of discourse. If we treat them with dignity, they might act with dignity.

As far a Chris’s post game concering “history actors.” I bring back the following quote:

“Whoever today speaks of human existence in terms of power, efficiency, and ‘’historical tasks’’ is an actual or potential assassin.â€?
-Albert Camus

]]> By: cheesechowmain http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9401 cheesechowmain Tue, 11 Apr 2006 23:04:16 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9401 Potter @ 5:58: It's so sane it'll never happen. The protagonists are having too much pleasure playing mutual antagonists. Potter @ 5:58: It’s so sane it’ll never happen. The protagonists are having too much pleasure playing mutual antagonists.

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9399 Potter Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:58:03 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9399 Suppose we let the Iranians have their moment of pride and now we try to embrace them and bid them to abide by an agreement with a verification program. Is that too sane? Suppose we let the Iranians have their moment of pride and now we try to embrace them and bid them to abide by an agreement with a verification program. Is that too sane?

]]> By: maotalk http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9396 maotalk Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:06:14 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9396 Somebody clarify this, please!! Copyright 2002 The Jerusalem Post The Jerusalem Post August 30, 2002, Friday LENGTH: 722 words HEADLINE: Latest incident puts spotlight on illicit arms trade industry BYLINE: Matthew Gutman BODY: While many Israelis' faces registered shock Wednesday night when the news broke that a ship carrying Israeli military parts destined for Iran was seized by German authorities, illicit Israeli military sales to the hard- line Shi'ite state is hardly a new phenomenon. This latest, and possibly most benign, link in a long chain of Israeli arms sales to Iran began when a Netanya- based company under the name PAD tried to ship a container full of Israeli-made rubber treads for armored personnel carriers to Iran via Germany. The company had received a license from the Defense Ministry to send the shipment to Thailand. According to defense industry experts, the name of PAD's chairman, Avihai Weinstein, piqued the Germans' suspicions, causing them to more closely inspect the ship's docking request and the ostensible transfer of its contents to a Malaysian ship. Weinstein, 34, along with his brother-in-law, Eli Cohen, had been involved with a previous arms smuggling incident two years ago when they allegedly tried to sell Iran surplus Canadian military equipment through European intermediaries. Prior arms trafficking incidents involving Eli Cohen compelled the US State Department's Bureau of Political- Military Affairs in September 1993 to ban business with any subsidiaries, associated companies, or successor companies he was affiliated with. While Israel continued to illicitly sell parts for Phantom jets to Iran even after Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in 1979, by far the most severe cases of Israeli arms trafficking involvement with Iran came under the aegis of US National Security Council staffer Oliver North, and other American officials in the mid 1980s. This became known as the Iran-Contra affair, or "Irangate." Throughout 1985 and 1986 Israel arms dealers connected to the Israeli government and with ties to American intelligence agencies including the NSC's North, allegedly supplied Iran with more than 1,000 LAW anti-tank missiles and parts to Hawk anti-aircraft missiles in deals worth over $ 100 million. The proceeds of this trade were then funneled into the coffers of the Contra rebels in Nicaragua. Meantime, the US and Israel tried to leverage these sales by asking Iran to pressure Shi'ite groups in Lebanon to release Western hostages. According to reports, much of the arms trading was allegedly conducted through a private Israeli company called International Desalination Equipment, Ltd., then run by Ya'acov Nimrodi, who from the 1950s until the Shah of Iran was overthrown in 1979 was Israel's military attache in Tehran. Nimrodi was often aided and counseled by then- prime minister Shimon Peres's adviser on terrorism, Amiram Nir - who also had close connections with North and later died in a mysterious plane crash in Mexico. While Israeli arms merchants' dealings with Iran appear treasonous and even suicidal given Iran's efforts to attain nuclear weapons, such clandestine contacts have served Israel's interest for years, according to Dr. Gerald Steinberg of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies. "There is overriding Israeli political interest to maintain informal ties with Iran, in anticipation of a formal change in Iran's perception of Israel," he said. Steinberg, an expert on the arms trade industry, said arms smuggling has long existed on the margins of Israel's legal system. Such illicit trade, often involving large sums of money, serves the interest of arms producers who have high overhead operating costs, he said. "The large sums of money often involved in such trade and a significant amount of jobs on the line creates an incentive to sell." Steinberg said. This need, he added, is also what enables Defense Ministry officials to allot arms- selling licenses to dealers, like Weinstein, with known ties to staunch enemies like Iran. Given the lack of strategic relevance of rubber treads used for APCs, and the pace of recent events in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, many Israeli experts reportedly believe the PAD affair will blow over quickly, according to Steinberg. He said the most severe political fallout will likely occur in Iran, where President Muhammad Khatami's pro- reform administration will have to weather the accusations of Iran collaborating with the "little Satan," Israel. LOAD-DATE: September 1, 2002 Somebody clarify this, please!!
Copyright 2002 The Jerusalem Post
The Jerusalem Post

August 30, 2002, Friday

LENGTH: 722 words

HEADLINE: Latest incident puts spotlight on illicit arms trade industry

BYLINE: Matthew Gutman

BODY:
While many Israelis’ faces registered shock Wednesday night when the news broke that a ship carrying Israeli military parts destined for Iran was seized by German authorities, illicit Israeli military sales to the hard- line Shi’ite state is hardly a new phenomenon.

This latest, and possibly most benign, link in a long chain of Israeli arms sales to Iran began when a Netanya- based company under the name PAD tried to ship a container full of Israeli-made rubber treads for armored personnel carriers to Iran via Germany. The company had received a license from the Defense Ministry to send the shipment to Thailand.

According to defense industry experts, the name of PAD’s chairman, Avihai Weinstein, piqued the Germans’ suspicions, causing them to more closely inspect the ship’s docking request and the ostensible transfer of its contents to a Malaysian ship.

Weinstein, 34, along with his brother-in-law, Eli Cohen, had been involved with a previous arms smuggling incident two years ago when they allegedly tried to sell Iran surplus Canadian military equipment through European intermediaries.

Prior arms trafficking incidents involving Eli Cohen compelled the US State Department’s Bureau of Political- Military Affairs in September 1993 to ban business with any subsidiaries, associated companies, or successor companies he was affiliated with.

While Israel continued to illicitly sell parts for Phantom jets to Iran even after Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in 1979, by far the most severe cases of Israeli arms trafficking involvement with Iran came under the aegis of US National Security Council staffer Oliver North, and other American officials in the mid 1980s. This became known as the Iran-Contra affair, or “Irangate.”

Throughout 1985 and 1986 Israel arms dealers connected to the Israeli government and with ties to American intelligence agencies including the NSC’s North, allegedly supplied Iran with more than 1,000 LAW anti-tank missiles and parts to Hawk anti-aircraft missiles in deals worth over $ 100 million.

The proceeds of this trade were then funneled into the coffers of the Contra rebels in Nicaragua. Meantime, the US and Israel tried to leverage these sales by asking Iran to pressure Shi’ite groups in Lebanon to release Western hostages.

According to reports, much of the arms trading was allegedly conducted through a private Israeli company called International Desalination Equipment, Ltd., then run by Ya’acov Nimrodi, who from the 1950s until the Shah of Iran was overthrown in 1979 was Israel’s military attache in Tehran. Nimrodi was often aided and counseled by then- prime minister Shimon Peres’s adviser on terrorism, Amiram Nir – who also had close connections with North and later died in a mysterious plane crash in Mexico.

While Israeli arms merchants’ dealings with Iran appear treasonous and even suicidal given Iran’s efforts to attain nuclear weapons, such clandestine contacts have served Israel’s interest for years, according to Dr. Gerald Steinberg of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies.

“There is overriding Israeli political interest to maintain informal ties with Iran, in anticipation of a formal change in Iran’s perception of Israel,” he said.

Steinberg, an expert on the arms trade industry, said arms smuggling has long existed on the margins of Israel’s legal system. Such illicit trade, often involving large sums of money, serves the interest of arms producers who have high overhead operating costs, he said.

“The large sums of money often involved in such trade and a significant amount of jobs on the line creates an incentive to sell.” Steinberg said. This need, he added, is also what enables Defense Ministry officials to allot arms- selling licenses to dealers, like Weinstein, with known ties to staunch enemies like Iran.

Given the lack of strategic relevance of rubber treads used for APCs, and the pace of recent events in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, many Israeli experts reportedly believe the PAD affair will blow over quickly, according to Steinberg.

He said the most severe political fallout will likely occur in Iran, where President Muhammad Khatami’s pro- reform administration will have to weather the accusations of Iran collaborating with the “little Satan,” Israel.

LOAD-DATE: September 1, 2002

]]> By: Ben http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9386 Ben Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:51:13 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9386 Nikos, 9:24 thanks - I retract some of that, IAEA said nothing happening on Iraq, and voiced opposition to the military action there, they are much less certain about Iran. http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Focus/IaeaIran/index.shtml and here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4617398.stm My cynicism has me assume anything coming out of the administration as false first, especially claims of foreign threats, and military facilities... my knee jerk there. your fellow plebe -b Nikos, 9:24 thanks – I retract some of that, IAEA said nothing happening on Iraq, and voiced opposition to the military action there, they are much less certain about Iran.
http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Focus/IaeaIran/index.shtml
and here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4617398.stm
My cynicism has me assume anything coming out of the administration as false first, especially claims of foreign threats, and military facilities… my knee jerk there. your fellow plebe -b

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9365 Potter Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:46:16 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9365 "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —President George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002 “There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” —President George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9364 Potter Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:24:58 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9364 <b>Darcy23</b> Welcome and thanks for your good post and perspective. Darcy23

Welcome and thanks for your good post and perspective.

]]> By: babu http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9357 babu Tue, 11 Apr 2006 07:53:25 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9357 Darcy23: "the Axis of Evil, did not start yesterday; it’s been going on since we attacked Iraq." The Axis of Evil has been going on since we exterminated the First People of this land, made believe they were never here and went right on with our xenophobic nation-building. As a nation, this is how we started. Has anybody out there seen Martin McDonogh's play, the Pillowman? An Irishman who grew up in London during 'the troubles', his voice is the most direct and succinct summary of the gruesome double-speak of modern politics. Nikos and Seattleites, it's been on Broadway but right now it's being staged by Seattle's ACT Theater. Excellent political theater. Darcy23: “the Axis of Evil, did not start yesterday; it’s been going on since we attacked Iraq.”

The Axis of Evil has been going on since we exterminated the First People of this land, made believe they were never here and went right on with our xenophobic nation-building. As a nation, this is how we started.

Has anybody out there seen Martin McDonogh’s play, the Pillowman? An Irishman who grew up in London during ‘the troubles’, his voice is the most direct and succinct summary of the gruesome double-speak of modern politics.

Nikos and Seattleites, it’s been on Broadway but right now it’s being staged by Seattle’s ACT Theater. Excellent political theater.

]]> By: babu http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9353 babu Tue, 11 Apr 2006 07:22:05 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9353 Reality: Thank you for your remarks. I'm intertested in your reaction to the idea that, since the troops in Iraq are drawn from our current all-volunteer Army, they are self-selected for affinity -- perhaps strong or just incipient -- to militarismand therefore should not be construed to represent a broader majority of the American public. Reality:

Thank you for your remarks. I’m intertested in your reaction to the idea that, since the troops in Iraq are drawn from our current all-volunteer Army, they are self-selected for affinity — perhaps strong or just incipient — to militarismand therefore should not be construed to represent a broader majority of the American public.

]]> By: Nikos http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-3/#comment-9352 Nikos Tue, 11 Apr 2006 06:50:44 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9352 Wow. Great debut, Darcy23. Especially: "How many tens of thousands of (brown) civilians do we have to kill and maim to avenge the Towers?" This is the most damning failure of Rummie and Crew. The ability to conquer is one thing; the commitment to 'democracy' another. In fact, in Bush-speak, democracy = 'a favorable climate for US-based multinational corporations' (and control over the oil -- even if it doesn't flow freely. They don't need to <i>pump</i> it so much as control it in perpetuity. Mucking up the Iraqi oil industry is no problem in the long run, like Saddam's selling it to China would have been.) Please favor us with your time again, soon, and often. Wow. Great debut, Darcy23. Especially: “How many tens of thousands of (brown) civilians do we have to kill and maim to avenge the Towers?”
This is the most damning failure of Rummie and Crew. The ability to conquer is one thing; the commitment to ‘democracy’ another. In fact, in Bush-speak, democracy = ‘a favorable climate for US-based multinational corporations’ (and control over the oil — even if it doesn’t flow freely. They don’t need to pump it so much as control it in perpetuity. Mucking up the Iraqi oil industry is no problem in the long run, like Saddam’s selling it to China would have been.)

Please favor us with your time again, soon, and often.

]]> By: darcy23 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9351 darcy23 Tue, 11 Apr 2006 06:26:46 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9351 I've never logged on before, but I listen to the show a lot. Lots of responses. First, when is Seymour H not right? He'd been dead on about repeated issues nobody else bothered to bring up. That others tried to cover up. On Iraq, I recommend the George Packer article in last week's New Yorker. H and P go out and talk to people, go into the trenches. Read about the guys holed up in the bases terrified at the thought they might have to leave the safety of the walls. Read the quotes, with names and even faces, of some of our officers who are in Iraq. lAs for questioning whether anyone was damaged by Agent Orange in Vietnam? Most of the guys who survived it initially are not still with us. Only the military continues to deny it; imagine the liability. Finally, the PR cited by RB about how great the military is as an alternate career: I review Web sites, and of hundreds, the military recruiting sites are the slickest ever. Our tax dollars at work. I'm a college prof for our current active military, including special forces and officers in training. It's true that many enlisted because they happen to be brown or black or poor, and this was a way they could get to college. Sadly, these smart sweet men and women are coming home in pieces. Then the military drops them. Maybe the ones in my classes are different from those RB knows, but they cry because they feel they've polluted their own souls. I feel sorry for people who post to use the forum as a basis for ridiculing the host, the guests, or the other posters. Or (for heaven's sake,) ridiculing someone for introducing military theory into current war discussion--again, see George Packer's New Yorker article on Iran. The discussion about yet another threat on yet another middle eastern country is serious, folks. Chatter about attacking Iran, the Axis of Evil, did not start yesterday; it's been going on since we attacked Iraq. SH is not pulling this stuff out of a hat. Doesn't anyone remember how Bush made the threat of the nuclear clouds about to enfold us from Iraq led us into this crazy imbroglio? People believed it because we'd watched the Twin Towers and the Pentagon on fire, then turn to ash. Now we've got the same 'threat.' So let's toast em? How many tens of thousands of (brown) civilians do we have to kill and maim to avenge the Towers? OK RB, now turn your withering scorn on me. I can take it. I'm a girl. I’ve never logged on before, but I listen to the show a lot. Lots of responses. First, when is Seymour H not right? He’d been dead on about repeated issues nobody else bothered to bring up. That others tried to cover up. On Iraq, I recommend the George Packer article in last week’s New Yorker. H and P go out and talk to people, go into the trenches. Read about the guys holed up in the bases terrified at the thought they might have to leave the safety of the walls. Read the quotes, with names and even faces, of some of our officers who are in Iraq. lAs for questioning whether anyone was damaged by Agent Orange in Vietnam? Most of the guys who survived it initially are not still with us. Only the military continues to deny it; imagine the liability. Finally, the PR cited by RB about how great the military is as an alternate career: I review Web sites, and of hundreds, the military recruiting sites are the slickest ever. Our tax dollars at work. I’m a college prof for our current active military, including special forces and officers in training. It’s true that many enlisted because they happen to be brown or black or poor, and this was a way they could get to college. Sadly, these smart sweet men and women are coming home in pieces. Then the military drops them. Maybe the ones in my classes are different from those RB knows, but they cry because they feel they’ve polluted their own souls. I feel sorry for people who post to use the forum as a basis for ridiculing the host, the guests, or the other posters. Or (for heaven’s sake,) ridiculing someone for introducing military theory into current war discussion–again, see George Packer’s New Yorker article on Iran. The discussion about yet another threat on yet another middle eastern country is serious, folks. Chatter about attacking Iran, the Axis of Evil, did not start yesterday; it’s been going on since we attacked Iraq. SH is not pulling this stuff out of a hat. Doesn’t anyone remember how Bush made the threat of the nuclear clouds about to enfold us from Iraq led us into this crazy imbroglio? People believed it because we’d watched the Twin Towers and the Pentagon on fire, then turn to ash. Now we’ve got the same ‘threat.’ So let’s toast em? How many tens of thousands of (brown) civilians do we have to kill and maim to avenge the Towers? OK RB, now turn your withering scorn on me. I can take it. I’m a girl.

]]> By: h wally http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9345 h wally Tue, 11 Apr 2006 04:20:59 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9345 Reality, I don't want to drag this out. I accept your apology. I'm not sure what your Eddie Murphy reference is all about or what you mean by:"If true, it is uncommon and that's why anyone who knows it is isn't shy about making jokes about it." Are you saying that being affected by agent orange is uncommon so it's alright to make jokes about it? Reality, I don’t want to drag this out. I accept your apology. I’m not sure what your Eddie Murphy reference is all about or what you mean by:”If true, it is uncommon and that’s why anyone who knows it is isn’t shy about making jokes about it.” Are you saying that being affected by agent orange is uncommon so it’s alright to make jokes about it?

]]> By: Nikos http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9343 Nikos Tue, 11 Apr 2006 04:01:37 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9343 Odds and ends: Sidewalker, I assumed your 5:35PM – http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9247 — was a big ol’ softball floating belt high over the plate just for clowns like me. I assumed indeed that you were playing Straight Man – and I <i>appreciated</i> it in my 5:42 PM. Thanks! Now then, in addition to h wally & CCM, whom I’ve already lauded, a big Thank You to sidewalker, Allison, Jon Garfunkel, Potter, maotalk, mulp, Catherine, Ben, John, Lisa Williams, Peter Kerlin, Peggy Sue, & Dave Hemp (and anyone I inadvertently failed to mention) for your dutiful expressions of citizen-outrage. You may not approve the affiliation, but in my book you’re all Guttersnipes. Thanks for being concerned enough to speak up. Reality bytes it, I think the 3rd sentence of your 6:58 PM carries the seeds of my answer to the question in your 7:05. Here’s what I mean: this war isn’t like Viet Nam – which you already concede to h wally. It’s not like WWII. It’s an elective war instigated in an atmosphere of public fear and a desire for retribution for the atrocities inflicted on our citizens on 9/11. This gained it massive early support; but the persistence of that (now fading) support is in no small part due to the nature of the soldiers: volunteers (mostly, depending on your view of the Reserves & Guard). No draftees means no civil unrest. No draftees means no anti-war demonstrations (of consequence). Moreover, the lethality of the American weaponry is unprecedented in world history. This makes the conventional fighting hopelessly one-sided – especially since the night-vision gear our guys wear makes them into crosses between the Terminator and ravenous gangs of forest lemurs. They attack in the dark and with unbeatable firepower. So, small casualty counts means no civil unrest. And this is true for the nature of the other “Coalition� forces: they are assigned tasks not only appropriate to their forces’ armaments, but are given more trivial tasks that can hardly be seen at home as controversial. The war is unpopular among the “Coalition� other members’ bodies politic, but managed by its perpetrators to create the least amount of public unhappiness. Meanwhile, domestic policies are more important to the voters in those countries (and in this one too) than this carefully managed war. That explains the all the recent reelections. Lastly, the lethality of the American forces meant that the war could be prosecuted differently from every other previous war. I expect that you know that in conventional military thinking, a three-to-one advantage in manpower is recommended for any attack on a defending force expecting the attack. And, the more, the better. But our military technology and our crack, professional soldiery allowed this war to be launched with an <i>inferior</i> ratio of attackers to defenders. That's unprecedented. Bully for us, right? Maybe not. This small but deadly crack military was the right size to conquer Iraq in less than 3 weeks – but not big enough to hold is secure from the unpredicted insurgency. To remedy this, Rumsfeld <i>should</i> have instituted the draft – but that would have translated to a President Kerry – or a President Dean! Which to me means that we’re willing to sacrifice the lives of tens of thousands of Iraqis to keep our current government-of-malfeasance in power. Which ought to condemn them to war crimes trials. Or worse. Odds and ends:
Sidewalker, I assumed your 5:35PM – http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9247 — was a big ol’ softball floating belt high over the plate just for clowns like me. I assumed indeed that you were playing Straight Man – and I appreciated it in my 5:42 PM.
Thanks!

Now then, in addition to h wally & CCM, whom I’ve already lauded, a big Thank You to sidewalker, Allison, Jon Garfunkel, Potter, maotalk, mulp, Catherine, Ben, John, Lisa Williams, Peter Kerlin, Peggy Sue, & Dave Hemp (and anyone I inadvertently failed to mention) for your dutiful expressions of citizen-outrage. You may not approve the affiliation, but in my book you’re all Guttersnipes.
Thanks for being concerned enough to speak up.

Reality bytes it, I think the 3rd sentence of your 6:58 PM carries the seeds of my answer to the question in your 7:05.
Here’s what I mean: this war isn’t like Viet Nam – which you already concede to h wally. It’s not like WWII. It’s an elective war instigated in an atmosphere of public fear and a desire for retribution for the atrocities inflicted on our citizens on 9/11.
This gained it massive early support; but the persistence of that (now fading) support is in no small part due to the nature of the soldiers: volunteers (mostly, depending on your view of the Reserves & Guard).
No draftees means no civil unrest. No draftees means no anti-war demonstrations (of consequence).
Moreover, the lethality of the American weaponry is unprecedented in world history. This makes the conventional fighting hopelessly one-sided – especially since the night-vision gear our guys wear makes them into crosses between the Terminator and ravenous gangs of forest lemurs. They attack in the dark and with unbeatable firepower.
So, small casualty counts means no civil unrest. And this is true for the nature of the other “Coalition� forces: they are assigned tasks not only appropriate to their forces’ armaments, but are given more trivial tasks that can hardly be seen at home as controversial.
The war is unpopular among the “Coalition� other members’ bodies politic, but managed by its perpetrators to create the least amount of public unhappiness.
Meanwhile, domestic policies are more important to the voters in those countries (and in this one too) than this carefully managed war. That explains the all the recent reelections.

Lastly, the lethality of the American forces meant that the war could be prosecuted differently from every other previous war. I expect that you know that in conventional military thinking, a three-to-one advantage in manpower is recommended for any attack on a defending force expecting the attack. And, the more, the better. But our military technology and our crack, professional soldiery allowed this war to be launched with an inferior ratio of attackers to defenders. That’s unprecedented.
Bully for us, right? Maybe not.

This small but deadly crack military was the right size to conquer Iraq in less than 3 weeks – but not big enough to hold is secure from the unpredicted insurgency.
To remedy this, Rumsfeld should have instituted the draft – but that would have translated to a President Kerry – or a President Dean!
Which to me means that we’re willing to sacrifice the lives of tens of thousands of Iraqis to keep our current government-of-malfeasance in power.
Which ought to condemn them to war crimes trials. Or worse.

]]> By: reality_bytes_it http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9342 reality_bytes_it Tue, 11 Apr 2006 03:37:14 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9342 Total mistke on my part re: h wally - but if my joking reference to events in Vietnam seem insensitive to his claims of ailments caused by his presence in Vietnam then so is Eddie Murphy in "Trading Places". If true, it is uncommon and that is why anyone who knows that it is isn't shy about amking jokes about it. Ok, I see a comment above regarding our "unwitting troops". It seems that others thought Chris was close to the mark when referring the Iraq as a "diasaster" when seeming to agree with guests. Well most all (80% of all active duty Army personell) have been to Iraq and "Two of every three eligible soldiers continue to re-enlist, putting the Army, which has endured most of the fighting in Iraq, ahead of its annual goal." http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-04-09-army-re-enlistments_x.htm So, I bet Chris or none of the guests on show today have been there and yet most of these "unwitting" Army troops have and chosen to go aback again. Chumsky is smarter than these poor wrethces though. Maybe they know something that many don't. How about that the CW is crap and, despite Chris' "informed view" (I mean, after all, if it isn't in the NYT's how could it be real?) things are going very well? "First off, US soldiers killed in Iraq continues to fall. This is the 5th straight month. Even IED deaths, after a brief surge in February are down to their lowest level since I started keeping track. Let me say that again. The #1 cause of death for US soldiers in Iraq was at its lowest level in March." http://www.opinionatedbastard.com/archives/000731.html Maybe Chris needs to "get out more"? Total mistke on my part re: h wally – but if my joking reference to events in Vietnam seem insensitive to his claims of ailments caused by his presence in Vietnam then so is Eddie Murphy in “Trading Places”. If true, it is uncommon and that is why anyone who knows that it is isn’t shy about amking jokes about it.

Ok, I see a comment above regarding our “unwitting troops”. It seems that others thought Chris was close to the mark when referring the Iraq as a “diasaster” when seeming to agree with guests. Well most all (80% of all active duty Army personell) have been to Iraq and “Two of every three eligible soldiers continue to re-enlist, putting the Army, which has endured most of the fighting in Iraq, ahead of its annual goal.”

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-04-09-army-re-enlistments_x.htm

So, I bet Chris or none of the guests on show today have been there and yet most of these “unwitting” Army troops have and chosen to go aback again. Chumsky is smarter than these poor wrethces though.

Maybe they know something that many don’t. How about that the CW is crap and, despite Chris’ “informed view” (I mean, after all, if it isn’t in the NYT’s how could it be real?) things are going very well?

“First off, US soldiers killed in Iraq continues to fall. This is the 5th straight month. Even IED deaths, after a brief surge in February are down to their lowest level since I started keeping track. Let me say that again. The #1 cause of death for US soldiers in Iraq was at its lowest level in March.”

http://www.opinionatedbastard.com/archives/000731.html

Maybe Chris needs to “get out more”?

]]> By: Nikos http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9336 Nikos Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:24:22 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9336 Ben @ 6:33 PM. None of us plebians know the answers to your questions. But here's what we do know: Them Persians got a bad attitude. They don't respect us. And they got oil. Black Gold! Texas Tea! Let's git 'em! Ben @ 6:33 PM. None of us plebians know the answers to your questions.
But here’s what we do know:
Them Persians got a bad attitude.
They don’t respect us.
And they got oil.
Black Gold!
Texas Tea!
Let’s git ‘em!

]]> By: Dave Hemp http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9334 Dave Hemp Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:21:31 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9334 just picked up Noam Chompskis new book "failed states" speaking of which we have done such a great job of creating in Iraq on the shoulders of our unwitting troops. Four years, no safer folks, just broke. Our kids could have all had first rate education for what it is costing us to bomb Iraq into submission. I have to think that if I were in Iran, I would be very scared of the USA. Who's the crazy nation with "nuculer" weapons and fanatic leadership? At least the administration won't have to teach the numb brainers in America how to pronounce a new word, Iraq.....Iran.....what's the difference, Bin Laden is there too right? Dave, Santa Cruz, Ca. just picked up Noam Chompskis new book “failed states” speaking of which we have done such a great job of creating in Iraq on the shoulders of our unwitting troops. Four years, no safer folks, just broke. Our kids could have all had first rate education for what it is costing us to bomb Iraq into submission. I have to think that if I were in Iran, I would be very scared of the USA. Who’s the crazy nation with “nuculer” weapons and fanatic leadership? At least the administration won’t have to teach the numb brainers in America how to pronounce a new word, Iraq…..Iran…..what’s the difference, Bin Laden is there too right?
Dave, Santa Cruz, Ca.

]]> By: peggysue http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9332 peggysue Tue, 11 Apr 2006 01:54:12 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9332 Good Lord. At least if you happen to be at ground zero when the nukes start flying being instantly vaporized wouldn't be such a bad way to go. I wonder if we are close enough to the navy base to get vaporized. It's watching my own skin fall off in big chunks that I'm not looking forward to. Maybe Nikos will see God for real. Good Lord. At least if you happen to be at ground zero when the nukes start flying being instantly vaporized wouldn’t be such a bad way to go. I wonder if we are close enough to the navy base to get vaporized. It’s watching my own skin fall off in big chunks that I’m not looking forward to. Maybe Nikos will see God for real.

]]> By: Peter Kerlin http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9331 Peter Kerlin Tue, 11 Apr 2006 01:37:44 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9331 WE DO have bunker busters and they are NOT "CONVENTIONAL" weapons. they use Uranium tips. American soldiers are getting sick from exposure to sites that were hit with these. tom donnely was a VERY MISLEADING there. WE DO have bunker busters and they are NOT “CONVENTIONAL” weapons. they use Uranium tips. American soldiers are getting sick from exposure to sites that were hit with these.
tom donnely was a VERY MISLEADING there.

]]> By: sidewalker http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9326 sidewalker Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:57:30 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9326 reality_bytes_it Says: April 10th, 2006 at 6:58 pm h wally - did “agent orange� bramage your draim so you can’t read? reality_bytes_it Says: April 10th, 2006 at 7:25 pm h wally - first, if you are serious regarding your illness then I regret my flipant remarks but I do not regret pointing out that, whether you like it or not currently, the US military isn’t fighting YOUR war. RBI, was that an apology? Expressing regret is not saying sorry for a personal attack, and it is a further insult to doubt h wally's credibility (if you are serious). Having a heated debate is fine, just keep it on the kinder gentler side of "compationate conservatism". reality_bytes_it Says:
April 10th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
h wally – did “agent orangeâ€? bramage your draim so you can’t read?

reality_bytes_it Says:
April 10th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
h wally – first, if you are serious regarding your illness then I regret my flipant remarks but I do not regret pointing out that, whether you like it or not currently, the US military isn’t fighting YOUR war.

RBI, was that an apology? Expressing regret is not saying sorry for a personal attack, and it is a further insult to doubt h wally’s credibility (if you are serious).

Having a heated debate is fine, just keep it on the kinder gentler side of “compationate conservatism”.

]]> By: sidewalker http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9325 sidewalker Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:51:43 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9325 Just wanted to clarify that my April 10th, 2006 at 5:35 pm comment was heavy on tongue 'nd cheeky side. CCM, here is another leader from the Coalition of the Wanting (Japan's PM Koizumi) mixing sex and politics. http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai/face/news/20060317p2g00m0dm011000c.html Fine bed-fellows, these. Just wanted to clarify that my April 10th, 2006 at 5:35 pm comment was heavy on tongue ‘nd cheeky side.

CCM, here is another leader from the Coalition of the Wanting (Japan’s PM Koizumi) mixing sex and politics.
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai/face/news/20060317p2g00m0dm011000c.html

Fine bed-fellows, these.

]]> By: reality_bytes_it http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9321 reality_bytes_it Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:30:05 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9321 h wally - I was a recruiter for 6 mos during the interlude before the first Gulf War. Now I am assistant editor for this website. //www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/call-for-volunteers-frontline-forum.htm/ It specializes getting stories straight from the people who know the Iraq war the best so that everyone can read them for themselves. P.S. As it turns out, the best recruiters for the Iraq war are vets of the war so by the end of this year, all recruiters will be vets. h wally – I was a recruiter for 6 mos during the interlude before the first Gulf War. Now I am assistant editor for this website.

//www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/call-for-volunteers-frontline-forum.htm/

It specializes getting stories straight from the people who know the Iraq war the best so that everyone can read them for themselves.

P.S. As it turns out, the best recruiters for the Iraq war are vets of the war so by the end of this year, all recruiters will be vets.

]]> By: reality_bytes_it http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9320 reality_bytes_it Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:25:14 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9320 h wally - first, if you are serious regarding your illness then I regret my flipant remarks but I do not regret pointing out that, whether you like it or not currently, the US military isn't fighting YOUR war. I am a combat vet and maintian contacts with dozens of people who are now combats vets and many have volunteered to go back for their 3rd time. Now, well over 50% of the current combat vets have either joined or reelisted since the war has started. Seeing the current situation through your eyes may make things seem different but the facts simply don't bear them out. Everyone has to live through their own past but you can't force others to. h wally – first, if you are serious regarding your illness then I regret my flipant remarks but I do not regret pointing out that, whether you like it or not currently, the US military isn’t fighting YOUR war.

I am a combat vet and maintian contacts with dozens of people who are now combats vets and many have volunteered to go back for their 3rd time. Now, well over 50% of the current combat vets have either joined or reelisted since the war has started.

Seeing the current situation through your eyes may make things seem different but the facts simply don’t bear them out. Everyone has to live through their own past but you can’t force others to.

]]> By: Potter http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9319 Potter Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:15:48 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9319 It seems as though this new Hersh/Wapo brouhaha has unnerved Ahmadinejad. The powers that be in Iran know a SANE Bush cannot do anything. The question (for everyone) is: is Bush rational? this was a good show. Chris maintained a credible incredulity throughout. Good guests. Joseph Cirincione and Professor Farhang were terrific. It seems as though this new Hersh/Wapo brouhaha has unnerved Ahmadinejad. The powers that be in Iran know a SANE Bush cannot do anything. The question (for everyone) is: is Bush rational?

this was a good show. Chris maintained a credible incredulity throughout. Good guests. Joseph Cirincione and Professor Farhang were terrific.

]]> By: h wally http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9318 h wally Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:12:12 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9318 You know Reality. I went to "fight for my country" I found out later it wasn't so. I have lots of friends who are veterans from many of our fun adventures into other peoples lives and countries. I only wish that you could understand even a little bit of what war is like and what it does to all involved. I'm talking about those in actual combat. Go to your local VA and do your commercials. Let me know when you get back from your recruiter. You know Reality. I went to “fight for my country” I found out later it wasn’t so. I have lots of friends who are veterans from many of our fun adventures into other peoples lives and countries. I only wish that you could understand even a little bit of what war is like and what it does to all involved. I’m talking about those in actual combat. Go to your local VA and do your commercials. Let me know when you get back from your recruiter.

]]> By: reality_bytes_it http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9317 reality_bytes_it Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:05:20 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9317 Nikos - but how can a "disasterous war" not trump domestic policies? Nikos – but how can a “disasterous war” not trump domestic policies?

]]> By: h wally http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9316 h wally Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:05:19 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9316 Well Reality, as a matter of fact I was damaged by Agent Orange but a really fun encounter with chemo therapy cleaned me up. My brain still works alright thanks for asking. Your pal old class 4-HWally Well Reality, as a matter of fact I was damaged by Agent Orange but a really fun encounter with chemo therapy cleaned me up. My brain still works alright thanks for asking. Your pal old class 4-HWally

]]> By: Jon Garfunkel http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9315 Jon Garfunkel Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:04:47 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9315 Chris & gang -- forgive my preemptive outburst; I caught the last twenty minutes, and it was indeed a good show. Compare your guests to Chris Matthews who was able to land... hold your breath... Ron Reagan and Hugh Hewitt. Catching the last twenty <i>seconds</i> of that was too much. Yes, clearly, what was articulated on your show was the aspect to the story that <i>was</i> news. Usually when charged with a question he can't answer, the President shrugs it off with a dopey laugh and a self-deprecating joke. But the "that's wild speculation!" outburst was the most facile acting I've ever heard from him. I hope for diplomacy here, but the mistakes of "axis of evil", depressing the vote, and Ahmadinejad's anti-Semitic rantings have all but buried any hope for raprochement. Chris & gang — forgive my preemptive outburst; I caught the last twenty minutes, and it was indeed a good show. Compare your guests to Chris Matthews who was able to land… hold your breath… Ron Reagan and Hugh Hewitt. Catching the last twenty seconds of that was too much.

Yes, clearly, what was articulated on your show was the aspect to the story that was news. Usually when charged with a question he can’t answer, the President shrugs it off with a dopey laugh and a self-deprecating joke. But the “that’s wild speculation!” outburst was the most facile acting I’ve ever heard from him.

I hope for diplomacy here, but the mistakes of “axis of evil”, depressing the vote, and Ahmadinejad’s anti-Semitic rantings have all but buried any hope for raprochement.

]]> By: reality_bytes_it http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/comment-page-2/#comment-9314 reality_bytes_it Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:03:36 +0000 http://www.radioopensource.org/war-with-iran/#comment-9314 Bush leads these countries into a world changing war where these leaders support him. In the midst of this "disasterous war" they must run again, face their voters, and win. He doesn't have to understand countries poeple, the leaders of those countries do and they win when the follow him. Bush leads these countries into a world changing war where these leaders support him. In the midst of this “disasterous war” they must run again, face their voters, and win.

He doesn’t have to understand countries poeple, the leaders of those countries do and they win when the follow him.

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