Last Thursday during Economics Reimagined, Chris offered a twentieth-century lesson for first-time homebuyers: Look for a Chinese restaurant; Jews will live in the area, and the schools will be good. In the comment thread for the show, TheSandro — who describes himself as a well-traveled combat Marine — offered this:
My immigrant father had a not dissimilar attitude when we were living in a poor, mostly Jewish and Italian neighborhood in NYC. I asked him why I could not attend the local parochial school. His reply: ‘Catholic schools do not teach you to think. They produce policemen, clerks, and secretaries. You are going to go to school with Jews.’ So I went to public schools…
TheSandro, in a comment to Open Source, January 11, 2007
Anyone who went to a Catholic school care to disagree?
I went to a Catholic elementary school in Washington State, but migrated to public school on the East Coast. Had we stayed in Washington through my high school years I would have gone to Bellarmine Prep in Tacoma. As my father explained it, Jesuit education (at Bellermine in particular) was that is was a style of education that forced you to think.
So maybe it has to do with what kind of Catholic school it is. Do the nun’s teach in a different way than the soldiers of Jesus or the Benedictine brothers?
I went to Catholic school (k-8), but with nuns. I always wondered with the “soldiers of Jesus” were like.
I went to an american-run catholic school here in Chile. It had a quite progressive curriculum and until today many national figures come from its rooms. I think that, chilean educational system aside, it was a pretty good school that encourages creative thinking (as myself, many classmates ended up in humanistic university studies). There are many other catholic schools here of denominations such as Soldiers of Jesus and Opus Dei, and you could consider them as opposed to mine in temrs of aims and methods as water and oil. I´ve always been an atheist, by the way.
Randomly, a coworker came to me yesterday with a report card from a Catholic school in 1950s upper class Pittsburgh. We chuckled over the non-grade component of the report card, which emphasized obedience, reverence for religion, timeliness, and cleanliness. And parents were supposed to fill out children’s home behavior as well when they signed the report card, empazing obedience, behavior in Sunday mass, cleanliness, “frustration with school,” and social conformity.
A good friend of mine teaches English in a Catholic school in Lansing, Michigan. He uses modern music to introduce subjects through which many students might otherwise sleep. Using lyrics and music from the Doors along with stories of their lifestyle, he introduced Romanticism, its “tenets,” and the level of celebrity of some of the English poets of the time. Not quite a parallel of the 1950s report card, but I can’t imagine 1950s nunnish schoolmarms embracing that approach.
Then again, I can’t imagine the Vatican being happy about it… the lay people of the the U.S. Catholic Church has moved in a direction quite apart from the Vatican’s official line (e.g. the majority of Catholic marriages employ contraception). “Liberation theology” in the 1980s and 1990s’ Latin America became a redefinition of Catholic social teaching as “praxis,” emphasizing a shrugging off of developing countries’ dependancy on the developed and employed theological learning as a means of social cohesion and organizing. Yet the Vatican “had to” clamp down on that one, and retake its capital-A Authority to teach from those simple peasants who were making up theology for themselves (maybe they sensed a threat). And in the U.S. and Europe, the hard core rages against condoms and spermicidal foam.
Fundamentally, for all the progress that American Catholics have made, largely in parallel with the rest of society, the Vatican still defends its captial-A Authority, because in any other way, it would not look like it was calling all the shots.
But I think it’s wrong to focus just on Catholics… sociologists of the 1970s and later have shown time and again that working class public school districts tend, in a statistical sense, to teach obedience, tidiness, and following instructions, while upper class neighborhoods teach creativity, leadership, and independence. In NYC of a few decades back, the Italian and Irish immigrants and their progeny comprised the working class of that metropolis, and Catholic education of that time, with its emphasis on obedience, served the need to inculcate the future working class with a God-enforced respect for authority quite well.
I’m an atheist and secular humanist who was educated in both public and Catholic elementary schools, and went to a small Catholic liberal arts college for three years (other year in Spain/junior year abroad). [Aside: Remember that I'm not qualified to speak about the differences NOW, only historically...] Frankly, I can’t see that either ‘parochial’ or ‘public’ had an edge, The statement that ‘Catholic schools do not teach you to think’, is both a meaningless and inflamatory one. It is books, classes, and fellow students IMHO who provide one with my education — not a granfalloon called ‘a Catholic school’ (or ‘a public school’). I am ever grateful to the monks of St. Vincent College, and to the lay faculty there for encouraging me in my intellectual explorations, no matter where they might lead…. I suspect I’m not alone in my judgment that access to books and native curiosity have a lot more to do with one’s education than the ‘nature’ of the institutions one passes through. One thing that both Catholic schools (in my time at least) and many Jews (apparently) have in common: the belief that God is the author of all truth, and that an honest search for truth is a search for God. After spending half my life in the South I don’t find this attitude among Protestant fundamentalists in Dixie, where fear of knowledge independently arrived at seems rampant. (The issues of evolution and gay marriage seem especially ‘touchy’. It’s hard to have a quiet, nuanced, and intelligent discussion of the pros and contras in these two arenas!). Back on topic, this should be an interesting show, bound to lead to a lot of personal examination. At least for me, I was surprised to find myself deeply reacting emotionally and intellectually to the provocative header to this thread!
Two fun but true stories.: An Amherst mother complains that she sent her son the a Pittburgh Catholic High School(modeled after Boston Latin)and Notred Dame. After graduating he became a Tibetan Buddhist.
A West Roxbury Mother concurs;she sent her daughter to all catholic schools and pray that she become a nun-Sr. Clair Carter did but a buddhist nun who leads the anual peace marches from the Leverett MA Peace Pagoda to Boston. Sr. Clare of the Leveret Peace Pagoda also led a famous march from Leveret to Africa following the historic slave trade sites.
This might be a different topic, but it’s always called my attention that in the US, mainstream religions being diverse kinds of protestantism, Catholicism seems to be perceived as the religion of minorities… Here in Southamerica the opposite occurs: the political and religious elite tend to be catholic, and the small amount of evangelical christians come mostly from poor provinces /neighborhoods where education is also at it’s worst. Even as a non-believer, I was raised with this notion that free-styled evangelical ceremonies are “less-serious” than catholic ones (a notion that I try to forget when I remember that I don’t prefer any religion over the others!). There’s even a common joke among agnostics here that goes like “How could I believe in the Evangelical Church, if I don’t believe in the real one!”.
Ola, Ismael in Santiago! Please give a nod to Bernard O’ Higgins!
I was raised Catholic in the 1950′s. Education had nothing to do with what went on in those schools. Each year, I prayed that the nun I got wouldn’t be another sadist. I lived in an abusive family and I went to school, 90 kids in each class, to spend the day with the nastiest nuns, who were horrifyingly ignorant. It was a miracle that I learned basic arithmetic and spelling. We lived in Philadelphia, an extremely conservative diocese, and it was a working class parish. And it’s true, that poorer kids in this country get a lousy education, whether in parochial or public schools. With Catholics, though, it’s about obedience to authority. Critical thinking is a sin.
When I had my first job at 17, I bought my first books, but each time I brought one home, my father destroyed them (THE GROUP by Mary McCarthy and CATCHER IN THE RYE by Salinger). I stopped buying books, because my father was a very scary person. This was not in any way a departure from my overall experience in Catholic elementary and high schools. We read no one. When I was in the convent, I read Pierre Teilhard, because I wanted to find out if I had any brains at all. I thought that if I wanted to understand him, I would somehow understand him. And I read more in the three years I was there than in the 18 years beforehand, but I had to sneak the books in and hide them. I read a book by the late Corita Kent (the Morrissey Blvd gas tanks artist), FOOTNOTES AND HEADLINES, and began to do a lot of writing and political art, so I was thrown out, because too many people liked what I did.
I don’t think things have changed since I was a kid. There may not be classes with 90 kids in them, but there are other self-defeating policies. I worked in protective services and Catholic schools were the WORST for covering up child abuse, even when kids came to school with bruises all over their bodies. Teachers were afraid of being fired if they reported, even though teachers are mandated by law to report. When I was a kid, I and my brothers were terrorized at home, then terrorized at school (once a nun threw a desk at my brother). I’m almost certain that priests knew my father was molesting me and supported it. And we all know from recent news reports that nothing has changed in that respect.
I am still trying every day to come to terms with my intelligence, still trying to own it, and even writing this, my heart is pounding. I am a poet. I read the other night at an open mic downtown and when people began to applaud after my first poem, I looked up and said, Oh I’m not done yet. But they were applauding because they liked what I read (which was a poem about not knowing what “grace” was as a kid). I was surprised and flustered, because it’s still confusing to me that people think I’m good at anything. If I had been born Jewish, I probably would have won the Pulitzer by now.
I’m an Episcopalian, but my parents sent me to a Roman Catholic school for first through third grades and then a Fundamentalist Baptist school for fourth through ninth. Although the Catholic nuns seemed severe at the time, they were positively worldly when compared with the fundies I encountered later.
In Catholic school, I learned the usual things that elementary students learn along with some theology and mass on Fridays. It was a quality, reality-based education. At the fundamentalist school, I learned that modern culture is evil and that the human body is dirty, corrupt, and shameful. In English class, we studied the Bible and Pilgrim’s Progress and learned composition by writing sermons. In Biology class, we studied creationism. In History class, we studied the Protestant Reformation, the American Great Awakening, and the 20th century struggle against the threat of communism and liberalism.
My experience is that the standard Roman Catholic approach to education treats theology as one component of a complex life lived in a complex world, whereas the fundamentalist approach treats theology as the defining characteristic of both your self and the world around you.
My favorite comment on this topic was spoken by a Catholic HS teacher to a Fundamentalist Protestant kid considering the merits of a private education recently, “Nothing will beat the religion out of you faster than a catholic school education.”
Interestingly, it’s the public schools, mandated to be religion-neutral, which seem to spawn the most fervent religious dedication. The requirement to “go the extra yard” outside of the boundaries of school is a better teacher than the ever-present coercion spurring one along on a prescribed spiritual path.
That being said, I have to say I received a terrific education myself. It was perhaps a bit on the classical side – replete with lots of reading of actual books written for adults sometimes in their original languages (including some provocative topics – pynchon, vonnegut, tom wolfe…), science (that included dissection, mixing dangerous chemicals and lots of formulas) and which was gratefully not subject to the whim of the latest sociological theories of learning.
Hello Open Sourcers
I didn’t get to hear the show but I’m going to tell my side anyway.
All I can say is I thank God that my Italian working class parents sacrificed and sent me to Catholic school in East Boston. It was there under the guidance of Salesian Orders that I learned to think creatively, to become a fully rounded indivdiual and, above alll, a free spirit. My first brush with public education came at the graduate level, at the University of Massachusetts, Boston.
I laugh at the Marine’s old tale about going to public schools because that’s where the Jews sent their kids. Must have been a long, long time ago. My guess is that the Jews don’t send many of their kids to urban public schools anymore. And the inherent snobbishness of the comment still doesn’t wear well. What’s wrong with policemen, firemen and clerks?
It would have been a disaster had my parents chose to send me to the dreadful Boston Public Schools. In fact, outside of Latin, I wouldn’t send my kids there. Things rarely change.
I will carry my affections for Catholic education to my grave. At least the brothers and priests and nuns taught me morals, a quaint idea in today’s nonjudgemental world. They gave me a starting point.
As for doctrine, my Catholic teachers were well rather “catholic” and erudite. They were masters of English. Rote memorization and all that. (Hey secularists: It works)
I thank the Salesians for their tough discipline coupled with intellectual curiosity and a dose of good community works. But perhaps they were too smart by half.
I now consider myself an agnostic who respects religion and its institutions — unlike atheistic punks like Richard Dawkins.
You can’t get me to say a bad thing about my Catholic education except for the hippie peace nuns in the sixties who strummed Latin right out of the curriculum.
It’s true that Catholic schools saved many people from the cesspool that is the Boston public school system. Forced busing really worked well.
Damn, wish I coulda caught this one before…
I went to public school through 8th grade. Being an obnoxious little punk with a mouth to match…but also being a short, fat wimp…my parents decided the local Catholic school was a good way to keep me from getting killed at the public high school. Looking back, that was an uselessly elitist attitude of theirs, since I routinely got in fights…and usually got my ass kicked…at the Catholic school, too.
Of course, I’m not Catholic. Never was; raised Congregationalist (protestant). I went to SBHS because it used to have a really good academic reputation.
I say “used to” because I would definitely characterize my education at SBHS as substandard. Not because of religious fundamentalism, not at all. We had just one priest, one nun and one deacon. Everyone else, even the principal, was a layman (or woman). No, it was substandard because the school had even fewer resources/funds than the public schools. In the end, had I gone to public school, I would’ve had at least half a semester of college credit under my belt (most of my friends there did). Instead I barely managed to scrape a 3 on my AP tests, and I couldn’t take three honors classes my senior year because the required religion class screwed up my schedule. Thanks to that, my class rank dropped (ranks are determined by grades but weighted by honors/regular classes) and I lost a scholarship at my preferred college. Gee thanks, Father. How about three Hail Marys and piss off? >:-(
Admittedly this was less because it was a CATHOLIC school and more because it was a struggling school with not enough money. And in all fairness, I’ve heard that in more recent years the dioceses has taken a renewed interest in SBHS, given it more funding, more teachers, and fewer lay people. Supposedly the academics are better, too. Certainly enrollment is up; my graduating class was barely 100 people…now it’s more like 500-600.
Still, the religion classes were more annoying than nasty. I probably made it more unpleasant for the teachers than they did for me; I was a born debater and relentless in poking holes in the flimsy rationales our teachers routinely fed us. I figured as long as I was going to deprive myself of my education in the name of my own entertainment…I might as well take the whole class with me. In all honesty, most of them joined me willingly. Questioning heathens, we were.
In the end, I feel grateful for only three things from that school: one, that I got to be on the rifle team (lettered twice!) all four years…so I learned how to handle a gun properly. Two, my senior english class was nothing but paper-writing and speech-giving…the only class that actually prepared me for college. And three, I learned about a religion besides my own, which gave me the basis of comparison I needed to objectively analyze other religions. In the end, it’s why I feel organized religion is…and always has been…the root of most everything wrong with this planet.
Oh, and fconte…what’s wrong with police, firemen and clerks? In the abstract? Nothing at all, noble professions all three. But in Boston? I see nothing but useless money-grubbers hiding behind a far-too-powerful union. People who never look beyond themselves and are routinely incompetent to the point where euthanasia seems the only solution.
Although I agree with you on the fact that it is a good thing to have exposure to more than 1 religion, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this line…
“organized religion is…and always has been…the root of most everything wrong with this planet.”
Organized religion is not without a shady past and is not perfect today. I also don’t believe it will ever be perfect, but I do not think it’s the root of everything wrong on the planet.” This is a wide sweeping comment that shovels a lot of “bad” into one pile.
Organized religion has made a major positive impact in this world, and it’s been this way for a very long time. There are so many examples of this going on right now around the world, through a lot of different avenues, such as feeding, clothing, education and adoption programs, just to name a few.
Just one man’s opinion,
Frank
The demographic is the same in UK. I am of Jewish extraction and was brought up in a mainly jewish area of london. We certainly achieved more than the local catholic school and many of my non-jewish classmates felt they benefited from the jewish study ethic.
The topic of American schools is worth discussing any day. I grew up at a time when our country had an appropriately large investment in education. Through the decades since, things have gone downhill. Whether it’s public school, private schools or Catholic schools, none can succeed without teachers and education being valued by parents, the community and the country. There’s something larger to be addressed than whatever any single type of school is doing its job. And what is its function–to learn to think, to learn to be resourceful, to learn be respectful, to value love and human kindness, etc.?